May 19. On the order of the day for the third reading of the Wool Bill, and the question being put," That the Bill be now read a third time," blishment of slavery at home? Should this Bill pass into a law, our liberty, and a security in our property, hitherto our just pride, and the envy of our neighbours! will become a fit subject only for their derision. For instance, a Frenchman may then say to an English woolgrower, "Your wool is certainly your property while it remains useless in your chamber; attempt to remove it, or sell it to the best advantage, and an exciseman will soon convince you that your property will terminate in a fine, and your liberty expire in a dungeon. Talk no more to me, I beseech you, of your English rights and property, of your libertas et natale solum. Fine words! I wonder where you stole 'em." To these humiliating taunts, the manufacturers may perhaps be able to give some answer; because they have prudently exempted themselves from be pose to which they may apply their wool; but they have at the same time effectually disabled the wool-grower from a possibility of reply. The revival and recognition of obsolete penal statutes, founded on principles of despotism is of itself a very serious evil. With a view to local accommodation you may alter, soften, or meliorate the clauses of this Bill; but to what purpose will it be, whilst the principle remains? From the polluted source of despotism the pure stream of liberty never can flow. Esteeming it, Sir, a duty which I owe to my country, to resist a principle so injurious to the rights, and so insulting to the feelings of every Englishman, I shall therefore move to leave out the word "now," and add the words, "upon this day three months." Sir John Thorold said:-Sir; having on a former occasion expressed my sentiments with respect to this Bill, I shall now detain the House but for a single moment. If the inefficiency of the existing laws had been clearly proved, by an export of wool so considerable as materially to injure the manufacturers, it might have afforded a reasonable ground for the attempt to alter them. Let us consider then, what has been proved: the annual export, for five years, of 1100 packs, and in the last, of 480; fewer seisures and convictions than under any other similar penal statute; and at present, a larger export of woollens than in any former period; the plea therefore of a necessity for alteration, cannot, I think, fairly being accountable to any one, for the pururged. I shall not trouble the House with any discussion, whether trial in a summary way be preferable to a trial by jury? Whether the power granted to justice, to impress, fine, and imprison witnesses, be a mild measure ? Whether a wharfinger ought previously to enter into a bond of 2001.? Or whether the gracious grant for a limited exportation of tobacco-pipe clay will sufficiently atone for, or be able to cover the multitude of sins under which this miserable Bill now labours. I object, Sir, to the principle of this Bill, which I contend to be incorrigibly bad, originating in the mean and rapacious spirit of avarice and monopoly, and consequently producing acts of injustice and oppression, a spirit which has uniformly pervaded and contaminated all the legislative attempts of the manufacturers, from the first session of their little senate at Exeter in 1786, to the dissolution of their festive board at the Crown and Anchor tavern in the Strand. To-morrow, Sir, the highest tribunal in the kingdom will again assemble, for the purpose of inquiring, whether the rights of humanity may not have been invaded in the East; a tribunal convened at the request of this House. The House also stands pledged, early in the next session, to take into consideration, how far it may be expedient to abolish slavery in the West Indies. What then will be thought of our sincerity and consistency, if, whilst we are so anxious to dispense the blessings of freedom abroad, we should at the same moment forge new chains for the esta Sir Peter Burrell argued against the Bill, as calculated to promote the interests of the manufacturer at the expense of the wool-grower, and contended that it would necessarily discourage the growth of wool, raise the price of mutton, and increase the price of labour. The question being put, "That the word "now" stand part of the question, the House divided: YEAS Tellers: {Mr. Sir John Thorold NOES {Sir Peter Burrell 72 24. The Bill was then read a third time. Debate in the Commons on the Bill for the Protection of Stocking Frames.] May | ing the Committee, that he had proposed 5. The House having resolved itself into nothing new, since the Act of the 21st , a Committee on the Bill" for the better Geo. 1, subjected persons convicted of siand more effectual Protection of Stocking milar offences in respect to the woollen Frames, and the machines, or engines, manufacture, to the same severe penalannexed thereto, or used therewith, and ties. The occasion of the passing that for the punishment of persons destroying Act, the Committee might possibly recolor injuring of such stocking frames, lect. A great number of foreigners came machines, or engines, and the framework- over and settled in the weaving branch, in knitted pieces, stockings, and other articles Spitalfields. A violent clamour arose and goods used and made in the hosiery among the English weavers thereupon; or framework-knitted manufactory." and they exclaimed, that foreigners were come over to take the bread out of their mouths, and went in a large mob, and riotously cut all the foreigners looms to pieces. The legislature of that day immediately took notice of the transaction, and passed the Act in question. - Mr. D. P. Coke stated, that it went to the creation of a new capital felony, and was therefore of material import. The Bill had three distinct objects, which he would shortly explain to the committee. In the town of Nottingham there were about 3000 knitting-frames used in the stocking manufactory: and, as the law now stood, if any person cut or destroyed a frame, it was only a misdemeanor against the person doing the injury. One object of the Bill, therefore, was, to make it a capital felony, without benefit of clergy, to cut or destroy any knitting-frame. At present, likewise, it was usual for the frame owner to lend his frame to a workman in the manufactory; if that frame was redemanded, the workman had it in his power to keep it, nor could the right owner recover it but by action of trover, and, perhaps, the man detaining the frame might be a mere beggar; he meant, therefore, to enact, that every person detaining a frame from the right owner more than six days after it was claimed by him, should be liable to pay a fine of 20 or 40s. to be levied by a justice of the peace, who should have power, in case of non-payment, to commit the party to the common gaol for a period of time not exceeding three months, nor less than one. Another object of the Bill was, in case any person should sell a frame, the property of another, or make away with it, he should be deemed guilty of felony, and liable to transportation on conviction. A farther object of the Bill was to declare any person convicted of breaking into the house of another, with an intent to cut or destroy his frames, guilty of felony without benefit of clergy. Mr. Coke stated to the Committee the frequency of the commission of all the several above-recited offences in the town of Nottingham, and the total inefficacy of the present laws for their prevention. He therefore submitted the Bill to their deliberate decision, at the same time remind Mr. Francis begged to know whether the statute had ever been carried into execution, and whether it had produced the desired effect? He objected to the making the circumstance of any person's going into the house of another with an intent to cut and destroy his frame, a capital felony, declaring that he thought it impossible for any man to pronounce the intent of another. He also expressed his doubts, whether the multiplication of sanguinary laws was not at once a disgrace to the country, and an evil, and if such laws were passed, and were to be merely nominal laws, and never be carried into execution, whether they did not do more harm than good; but above all, he wished to know, whether the existing laws of the same nature had answered their end, and produced any effect? Mr. Coke desired, that the 21st Geo. I might be read; which having been done, and the words "frame-work knitters" occurring in one of the clauses, he said, he was glad it had been read, because it confirmed him in his opinion, that the laws in existence did actually reach the stocking manufacturers, but without proceeding to a sufficient length. The present Bill meant to protect them and their manufacturing machines and instruments from those injuries to which, under the existing laws, they were still liable. With regard to the hon. gentleman's question, Whether the existing laws had produced the desired effect? as he had not heard of any complaint from the wool-combers, he took it for granted that they had. The present Bill held out a capital punishment in terrorem, in order to deter men from committing such offences; he wished not that any person should be hanged under contending that the cases were not analogous or equal; for robbing ready-furnished lodgings, and stealing or making away with the knitting-frame of a stocking manufacturer, differed essentially in their respective degrees of importance. There were not many such persons as major Semple, who would sell the furniture of their lodgings; but there were thousands who would sell their frames. The amendment was agreed to. the authority of the Bill. Heaven forbid that any should! but the Bill was meant to operate upon the fears of the many, who would not otherwise abstain from practices so unjustifiable in themselves, and so injurious to the interests of the stocking manufactories. With regard to the clause making it a capital felony to break open a house, with an intent to cut and destroy the frame or frames of another; if a man broke into his house, with an intent to do an illegal act, he ought to be punished severely; for the crime in him was not the less because he had not been enabled to commit it altogether; the intent was his crime, and for that he should suffer; and as to its being his intent, that was a matter for a jury to decide upon, and gentlemen need not to be afraid of a jury's too often finding a person guilty who was so charged, because it was in general a matter of extreme difficulty to prove an intent, and juries were too honest to bring in a verdict of so fatal a nature, without having first had sufficient proof adduced to convince them that the verdict was merited. The Committee proceeded with the Bill, and filled up several of the blanks. When they came to the clause making it felony and a transportable offence to sell or make away with another person's frame, The Attorney General said, that the common law held the parting with the property of another to be a breach of trust, and not a felony. There was one particular, indeed, in which the legislature had thought fit to declare a breach of trust to be a felony, and that was the making away with the furniture of readyfurnished lodgings; but there the law had pronounced a simple felony or larceny, not of necessity incurring transportation on conviction, but subject to an arbitrary punishment at the will of the court. He was ready to agree, that in the instance of making away with the knitting-frame of another, the common-law remedy, by an action of trover, did not amount to an adequate remedy; but then, he saw no reason for going from that all at once to absolute transportation, which was certainly the next punishment to death itself. He should propose, therefore, to put it upon the footing of robbing ready-furnished lodgings, and declare it punishable at the discretion of the court as a felony or a larceny. Mr. Coke argued against the objection, Sir James Johnstone said, that as the Bill was to extend to Scotland and create new crimes there, he hoped they should have English justice to try them by. The chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again. May 14. The Bill being again committed, Mr. D. P. Coke observed, that as the Bill contained a clause by which it was intended to create a capital felony, he had moved to report progress, in order to give gentlemen an opportunity of considering how far such a measure was necessary or proper. He was not speaking his own sentiments, but those of other people; the manufacturers of Nottingham imagining, that if breaking into a manufacturer's house by night, with intent to cut or destroy any frame, or work in a frame was made a capital felony, that offence would never again be committed. They had therefore instructed him to propose such an alteration in the law, and to remind the House, that there was an act of parliament in existence, which made it a capital felony, to commit a similar offence in any woollen or silk manufacturer's house in Spitalfields; and as the frames of the Nottingham stocking manufacturers were of twice the value of the frames used in the woollen or silk manufactories of Spitalfields, they hoped the House would have no objection to extend to them the advan tage of a similar law of this at least they were certain, that if such an extension were denied them, the statute in favour of the Spitalfields manufacturers ought to be repealed. Mr. Grenville said, that the remarks of the hon. gentleman, were, in his opinion, a convincing proof that he ought to resist the proposition, and that it was high time for the House to set its face against any extension of capital punishments, unless in very particular cases; for it was evident, that if the legislature permitted such an extension, in ever so strong an instance, it was directly made a precedent. For these reasons, he opposed the filling up the blanks of the clause, with the words, "shall suffer death, without benefit of clergy." The question being put, it was negatived. Expense of the Buildings at Somerset House.] May 5. The Report from the Committee of Supply was brought up. Upon the Resolution," That 25,000l. be granted to his Majesty upon account, towards carrying on the building at Somerset-house," Sir John Miller rose to complain that there was not a proper account of the money already expended in the erection of the buildings at Somerset-house. The estimate signed by sir William Chambers was too loose and unsatisfactory to give the House the necessary information. No private gentleman would suffer his architect to proceed with a large building, and put him to additional expense, merely upon having presented him with such a statement. Sir John read the particulars of the estimate, and commented upon them, observing that there were large arrears stated to be due. He wished to see the vouchers for what had been already expended, and the plan of what as yet remained to be done; since, without that House having it in its power to administer any check or form any opinion upon the subject from authentic documents, it appeared to him that sir William Chambers might go on from year to year, laying foundations for future erections, and come regularly, and ask for 25,000l. as his annuity. Although the House were not architects, they had a right to look into the public expenditure. He was willing to admit, that the buildings did credit to sir William, and credit to the country; but he, nevertheless, could not but complain of there not being any vouchers of the expenditure before the House. Mr. Pitt said, that the money voted, from time to time, for carrying on the building, showed undoubtedly the liberality of the country, but that the House would recollect the plan of it had been several times before them, and that the mode of voting the money by annual sums had been long since settled by themselves. He had not the smallest objection to their having any papers that gentlemen might desire to see upon the subject, but he apprehended that the House was not the proper place to examine and check the accounts. They would call to mind, that every sum voted was issued upon impress, on account, to sir William Chambers, and that he would necessarily have to discharge himself ultimately, by producing before the auditor his vouchers, from whom, like every other public accountant, he would not be able to obtain his quietus, without having in a satisfactory manner proved, that every shilling issued to him, had been fairly expended. With regard to himself, he had no personal feeling on the subject. The design had not originated with him, but, as the House well knew, long before he was in office. Mr. Hussey declared, that he had often wished the House was burnt down; but he did not then wish it, because the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Dundas) was to be in it; but he really thought parliament should give some check to the expenditure of such large sums, and it was not sufficient to say, that the architect would lay his vouchers before the auditor of the imprest when the whole building should be completed. There remained a great deal yet to be done, and there ought to be some one responsible person appointed to watch over, and superintend the progress of the building. Mr. Pulteney said, that there never was any thing so entirely without a check as the buildings in question. There ought undoubtedly to be some means of control adopted; and especially when it was considered that sir William Chambers had 5 per cent. on all the money expended. It was his interest, therefore, to find as many ways of adding to the expense as possible. Mr. Rose said, that Mr. Paine, one of the first surveyors in the kingdom, was appointed to watch over the buildings. The House would also bear in recollection, that before sir William had any sum issued to him, the expenditure of the sum last issued, underwent a strict examination. The Resolution was agreed to. Slave Trade.] Mr. Pitt said, that he would take the opportunity of so full a House to give notice, that, on the ensuing Thursday, he would call the attention of the House to a subject of much importance. Many petitions had been presented on the subject of the Slave-trade; and an hon. friend of his (Mr. Wilberforce) had, early in the session, given notice of his intention to bring forward some proposi tion respecting it; but, unfortunately, he had been prevented by indisposition from attending to fulfil his intention, nor was it at all probable that he would be able to be present in that House previous to the prorogation. Indeed, if it were, in the present advanced period of the session, it would not be advisable that a business of such considerable importance should be gone into; but he nevertheless thought, that the session should not pass over, without some notice having been taken of the subject of the petitions in that House. He, therefore, would, on Thursday, move a Resolution, "That the House will, early in the next session, proceed to take into consideration the circumstances of the Slave Trade." The Budget.] The order of the day for going into a Committee of Ways and Means being read, the House went into the said Committee, and the various accounts were referred to the same. Mr. Chancellor Pitt now rising, remarked, that in laying before the Committee an account of the state of the re venues, and particularly of the receipt and expenditure for the year, he was more than usually anxious to gain their attention, and to show them how truly the calculations had been made, and in how small a compass of time the influence of the arrangement which was adopted had operated to the essential benefit of the nation. The statement could not fail to give satisfaction to every gentleman who heard him. He would not detain the Committee with any previous matter, but simply state the particulars of the account on both sides, observing, however, that a very considerable increase had taken place in the expenses of this year beyond the estimate that had been made in the year 1786, and which had been thought essential to our national prosperity and honour. These were not likely to occur again, and, in the mean time, it was a matter of no small satisfaction, that, notwithstanding these increased demands and temporary calls, such had been the beneficial effects of the late arrangement, and such the prosperous condition of the country, that ample provision had been made for all, without recurring either to a loan or to new taxes. Mr. Pitt first stated the several articles of supply which had been voted for the service of the current year, and which consisted of the following heads, viz. Making a total of ARMY. Guards and Garrisons, Plantations and Gibraltar, half-pay to the British and American Forces, to the amount of 228,000/.; Chelsea Pensioners 173,000/., &c. making a total for the Army of But from which sum 43,000l. is to be deducted, on account of stoppages from the troops abroad for provisions supplied them from hence. Ordnance...... Expense of maintaining Convicts Annual allowance to American Loyalists..... Civil Establishments in AmeriRepayments on Addresses, &c. ca, together with the expense Forts, &c. of Somerset-place, African Deficiency of grants in the year 1787 ...... ...... Estimated deficiency of Land and Malt 2,236,000 2,022,023 419,000 34,000 74,000 46,000 90,000 63,000 300,000 Expense of the Armament...... 311,000 Sum voted to pay the Prince of Wales's debts, &c. 181,000 Amounting in the whole to 5,779,365 A farther sum had been voted to pay off exchequer bills, and for deficiencies of several funds, to the 5th of April 1787, which latter would never occur again, in consequence of the Consolidation Act; but as both these sums, to the amount of 6,078,000l., were taken on both sides of the account, he omitted them for the sake of perspicuity. In this account, it was, he said, to be observed, that, in the navy, there was an increase beyond what would be the necessary peace establishment, of 446,000l. In the army there was an increase of 233,000l., and in the ordnance there was an increase of 61,000l. These increased demands were occasioned by the circumstance of our putting the distant possessions of the country into a state of more complete defence, by sending out 3,000 men more than came within the contemplation of the Committee, when they made the report of what would be |