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be one span of at least five hundred feet clear that there was a special bill passed authorizing to go beneath it. Of course the Senator ought between piers. The corporation may execute the bridging of the Mississippi river at St. not to object. I understand the consolidated a mortgage and issue bonds payable, principal | Louis, or a special provision in that general company is now anxious and desirous to proand interest, in gold; and their bridge across bill.

ceed to the construction of the bridge, subject the Mississippi river and approaches thereto, Mr. HENDERSON. I am very well aware to these restrictions. when coustructed, is to be a post road to carry of that.

Mr. HOWARD. The Senator from Mig. the mails of the United States, and enjoy the Mr. RAMSEY. This is amendatory of that. souri entirely misunderstands me if he suprights and privileges of other post roads. The Mr. HARLAN. I understand that two com- poses that I am objecting to the bill. I merely corporation may hold their meetings in either || panies were organized to construct a bridge in put an inquiry to the Senator involving a ques. the State of Illinois or the State of Missouri, pursuance of that law, one under the authority tion of law as to the rights of the United States. as the board of directors may elect, and the of Missouri and another under a charter granted Mr. HENDERSON. It is a very nice question directors may be citizens of any of the United by the Legislature of Nlinois. These two com- of law, and really I am not prepared to discuss it States; and the corporation may sue and be || panies were for a time in conflict; that is, they | this morning. I have not examined the question sued in any circuit court of the United States. were contending each for the right to construct as to the authority of a State Legislature to Nothing in the act or in any previous legisla- the bridge; but ultimately they have consoli- authorize the construction of a bridge over & tion affecting the premises is to be so construed dated under the law of the State of Missouri navigable stream of the United States. I refer as to deprive the Legislatures of the States || authorizing them to do so.

A certified copy

the Senator, however, to various decisions on of Illinois and Missouri of the right to regu. of that act was before the committee, and also that subject, the Wheeling cases and other very late the tolls and fares which may be charged a certified copy of the articles of consolidation, interesting cases decided by the Supreme Court by the company for the use of the bridge ; but so that it appeared to the committee that there of the United States, where he can find perhaps the tolls now fixed by the Legislatures of was a perfect agreement now that these two much more law than I should be able to give Illinois and Missouri shall not be increased. companies would consolidate and construct the him in the short compass of an hour this morn

Mr. HOWARD. I do not know from what bridge after the pattern mentioned in this bill. ing. I hope he will withdraw his objection committee the bill now before us bas proceeded, Mr. HOWARD. I understand the Senator | and let the bill pass. but I observe, from the reading of the bill, that from Missouri to say that there is not laid down Mr. MORTON. I had supposed that there it assumes to recognize two State corporations || in the charter any particular mode or manner was no doubt that the Government of the United as constituting but one, for the purpose of in which this bridge shall be built, except that States had a right to prevent the building of a erecting this bridge across the Mississippi | it shall not be so built as to obstruct naviga- | bridge over any navigable water, which would river; and the bill goes further : it assumes to tion. Now, suppose the State corporation obstruct navigation, and I had supposed there limit and regulate the powers and faculties of should refuse to make the bridge according to was no doubt about the power of the Governthat corporation by providing that the bridge the requirement of this act, what would be the ment to pull down any bridge that had been shall be built in a particular manner, and with result? Is there any remedy which the Uni- built under State authority which did obstruct a certain span. I wish to inquire of the hon- ted States could resort to ? They are author. navigation. orable Senator from Missouri whether the || ized to construct a bridge across the river so Mr. POMEROY. I am very anxious that State corporation, or corporations, having this as not to obstruct navigation. I am not sure this bill should pass, because it is an experibridge in charge will be bound to follow out by any means that the States have not the right ment in bridge building. This is to be a bridge the provisions of the bill which we now have to authorize the construction of a bridge across without a draw, with a span of five hundred under consideration. If those provisions alter the Mississippi river, and I am by no means feet, and eighty or ninety feet above low water. the charter of the company granted by the sure that it is in the power of Congress to say There is no such bridge built anywhere in the State, may it not turn out that these companies that they shall not do it. It is on this point United States. An engineer states that he can will refuse to comply with the provisions of that I wish a little light from the Senator from build this bridge and I want it tried. It is so the act, to build the bridge in the manner pre- Missouri. If the State corporation refuses to high as to be out of the reach of human sym. scribe i by it; and if they should so refuse, I do what we prescribe, is there any remedy for pathy; but if he builds it so that it can stand I inquire of the honorable Senator from Missouri the United States ?

shall be gratified. I confess I have my doubts what remedy the United States will have ? Mr. HENDERSON. I do not know that

about the whole project, but these companies Have ngress a right to alter and amend char. the United States could compel the construc- are willing to try it, and I want to see it done ters granted by the States ? That is the ques- tion of a bridge at St. Louis. That is not the if possible. tion to which I desire an answer. purpose of this bill; it is merely to declare

Mr. CONNESS. I rise only to say a word Mr. HARLIN. I believe there can be no ihe mode of constructing by State corpora- or two about this bill. To me it is one of the doubt but that Congress could prohibit the con: tions, a consolidation of which has now taken

strangest bills that has been presented to Construction of any bridge across the Mississippi | place, a bridge which shall be a post road..,,I gress since I have been in it. It proposes to river under existing laws. This bill provides | believe it has been customary to pass such bills take two corporations, organized under the that the bridge may be built as provided for by here in Congress.

laws of different States, for the purpose of the laws of Illinois and Missouri, with the con- Mr. HOWARD. I understand that very

building a bridge across the Mississippi river; dition that one of the spans shall be five hun- well; but there is a corporation authorized to dred feet in length, and the company agree to

and by this act to recognize and declare them construct a bridge in its own way across the

to be a corporation by a given name. In other pnt in a span of that length. There is no con- Mississippi river, and we undertake to dictate

words, it organizes two corporations, chartered dict, therefore, between the company as now to that corporation as to the manner in which

under separate States, into one corporation organized and the Government either of the the bridge shall be constructed. Suppose the

under an act of Congress. The language is United States or of Missouri or Illinois.

corporation refuses to construct it in that manMr. HOWARD. Suppose they should fail

specific. I beg to read it: ner, and contends for making it in a different

That the company formed by this consolidation, to comply with that provision ? style?

under the name and stylo of the Illinois and St. Louis Mr. HARLAN. I suppose if they decline to Mr. HENDERSON. I do not understand Bridge Company, is hereby recognized, and declared build the bridge no damage will be done except that this bill dictates to the corporation in what

to be a corporation by that name, with full power to those who expect to use it; certainly no manner they shall construct the bridge. It

and authority to construct a bridge across the Mis

sissippi river, &c. detriment to the Government of the United does require them to construct it of a certain States only so far as they would be deprived of span, and the company desire to construct the

Then it imposes a limit upon the extent of the use of the bridge for a post road. bridge in that way. Senators may rest assured

the span of the bridge, that is to reach, as the Mr. HENDERSON. The bill under con- there will be no difficulty, so far as the com

Senator from Kansas says, out of the range sideration provides simply for a change, as I pany is concerned, about their building the

of human sympathy, and the second section understand it, in the construction of this bridge bridge. They proceed and construct

continues the purpose of the first, and says: from the requirement of the act of July 26, it, and their plans have been adopted in strict

That the said corporation may execute a mortgago

and issue bonds payable, principal and interest, in 1866, which the Senator from Michigan will accordance with the principles laid down in gold, and their bridge across the Mississippi river, remember required bridges to be built in a cer. this bill.

and approaches thereto, when constructed, shall be tain style. This bill requires a wider span, a Mr. HOWARD. Suppose they should wish

a post road. span of five hundred feet. Some say that the to depart from them?

Now, sir, if we can pass an act of this kind, bridge cannot be built with that span. The Mr. HENDERSON. Then it might, per- I do not know any reason why this should not engineers at St. Louis say that it can be built. haps, defeat the construction of the bridge ; be passed. I certainly have no objection to The State charters did not require any particu- that is all; but the bridge, I apprehend, will the limit upon the span, and am as anxious as lar width of span, and, as stated by the Sena- be built, as the bridge company itself is will- any one that the experiment shall be tried ; tor from lowa, there is no conflict between this ing to build under this restriction ; that is, with but by act of Congress consolidating two corbill and the State charters. The State char. span of five hundred feet, a greater span than | porations organized in several States under ters authorize the construction of a bridge in has been required of any bridge over any nav.

the laws of those States into one, and giving such a manner as not to obstruct navigation at igable waters of the United States at the pres. them authority to proceed to do certain acts the city of St. Louis. The Senator from Mich- ent time. Surely the Senator from Michigan within each of those States, is at least a novel igan will remember that in 1866 there was a should not object. The company are willing proposition. general law passed upon the subject of bridging to take upon themselves this restriction and Mr. HENDERSON. The difficulty about the Mississippi river. I resisted the passage build a bridge wide enough in the span to admit this matter is this: the Illinois Legislature of that bill, but I was overpowered; the Senate the largest steamers and the largest rasts that organized a company under a charter to build passed it, and it has become a law.

float upon the Mississippi river, and high enough a bridge at the city of St. Louis, and the LegisMr. RAMSEY. The Senator will recollect to allow even the largest New Orleans steamers lature of the State of Missouri passed a similar

40th Cong. 2D Srss.--No. 250.

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act, but organized into a corporation different acts in relation to the Navy,'' approved March to the House for concurrence. I would not individuals. A conflict of right and of juris. || 2, 1867 ; but the repeal of the section is not to ask this for any private measure, or any measdiction over the river occurred between these be construed to increase the pay now allowed by ure of individual interest; but this is a bill of two companies, each claiming the sole and law to officers promoted in accordance with great public importance, and it is very desir. exclusive right to construct a bridge at St. its provisions.

able to get it through, and I think it will take Louis, and claiming the right by virtue of the The fourth section repeals all acts and but a little while to do it. respective charters of the different States.

of They enjoined each other from proceeding, temporary acting officers in the Navy.

ished business can be laid aside informally, if each company claiming, as the Senator from The Committee on Naval Affairs reported there no objection. Michigan now claims, that the Legislature of a the bill with various amendments. The first Mr. SHERMAN. I happen to know that State interested has a perfect right to proceed amendment was to strike out the first section that bill will probably excite some comment to authorize the construction of a bridge across of the bill after the enacting clause in the fol- and create some delay. It is a bill of much the navigable waters of the United States. lowing words:

greater importance than I supposed when the The Senate will observe that these two com- That from and after the passage of this act the Senator spoke to me about it a little while panies are now organized into one. They have Marine corps shall consist of the number of officers, ago. I desire to get through with the funding so organized themselves, so far as they possibly | by the act for the increase of the Marine corps of non-commissioned officers and musicians authorized

bill to-day if possible, so as to get it out of the can, by articles of agreement into one com- the United States, approved March 2, 1847, and the

road. Senators all around me are impatient. pany, thereby doing away with the difficulty acts previous thereto, and of fifteen hundred pri- | They say it stands in the way of other busi

vates; and all acts and parts of acts inconsistent that occurred from this claim of right of each herewith are hereby repealed: Provided. That the

ness; and I hope, therefore, we shall proceed State.

coin missions of officers now in the Marine corps shall with the regular order. I have no doubt I Mr. CONNESS. I have no objection to the pot be vacated by this act, but no appointment shall shall vote for the Senator's bill when it comes

be made in any of no grades of said corps until the bill except to call attention to its peculiarity, number in said corps is reduced below the number

up again. I should not object to a bill, and I should think herein provided for each of said grades.

RIGHTS OF CITIZENS ABROAD. it entirely right, giving the consent of the The amendment was agreed to.

Mr. CONNESS. With the leave of both United States to the consolidated corporation doing certain things, namely, building a

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. I think it Senators I desire to submit a motion to traps.

would be well to have the Senator from Mis- fer the special order appointed for to-day to bridge.

souri explain this bill and state how much it another day, which will be removing one of Mr. HENDERSON. That is all the bill

increases the pay of any officers of the Marine the obstacles. I move to make the special does. Mr. CONNESS. No; the bill goes further. corps or of the Navy.

order for to-day at one o'clock, lhe bill for the

Mr. DRAKE. That explanation would come protection of American citizens abroad, the It organizes these companies into a corporation under a national statute, and authorizes

up in proper connection with an amendment order of the day for Thursday next at one them to issue bonds, declaring the manner in

proposed by the committee. If, however, the o'clock, by agreement with the chairinan of

honorable Senator from Vermont desires to the Committee on Foreign Relations, giving which they shall be made payable, and that, I

have that explanation made before we come notice that we shall expect it to be considered submit, is going further than we have ever

to that amendment, I will make it now. There on that day. gone.

are several amendments of small character The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Chair Mr. HARLAN. The Senator from Califor

that can be acted upon at once. I will explain will put the question on that motion. nia is evidently in error in that respect. Congress has recognized a railroad company under

the point referred to when we come to the The motion was agreed to.

amendment which involves it. the laws of California, and authorizes that

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The unfin

The next amendment was in section two, to railroad company to do certain things, among

ished business of Saturday, the funding bill, is strike out the enacting clause; in line three to others to issue bonds, the principal payable in

now before the Senate.

Mr. DRAKE. I will say to the Senator thirty years, and the interest payable in gold | insert the words ** first three” before the word

“grades;" in line four to strike out the word from Ohio that if this bill of mine should lead at a certain rate; and the same law authorized certain companies incorporated in Kansas and

provided” and to insert "authorized;'' to debate, I would, of course, give way at

line eight, after the word “steamships," to certain companies in California to consolidate

once; but if it should not lead to debate, we insert "of war;' in lines nine and ten to and proceed to do certain work as consoli

could get through with it in a few minutes. strike out the words, " and the grade of third Mr. SHERMAN. I can say to the Senator dated companies, or as one company consolidated under that provision.

assistant engineer is hereby abolished,” and that I am requested by other Senators to state

to insert, “and no appointment of third assist- that the bill will lead to discussion. They Mr. HENDERSON. All that will be found

ant engineer shall hereafter be made;" so as to wish time to look into it. It is a very import. in the Pacific railroad charter. make the section read :

ant bill, which is called up now for the first The bill was reported to the Senate, ordered

That no appointment of engineers shall be madein time. No doubt the Senator having called it to a third reading, read the third time, and either of the first three grades of said corps until the passed. number is reduced below that authorized in the first

up now and called the attention of the Senate section of the act to regulate the appointment and

to it will get the advantage of that when he pay of engineers in the Navy of the United States, calls it up again. Mr. DRAKE. I move that the Senate take

approved August 31, 1842, and the number so author-
ized shall be based upon the number of steamships

ENROLLED BILLS SIGNED.
up for consideration House bill No. 941. of war now in commission. And no appointment of
The motion was agreed to; and the Senate, third assistant engineer shall hereafter be made.

A message from the House of Representaas in Committee of the Whole, proceeded to The amendment was agreed to.

tives, by Mr. McPherson, its Clerk, announced consider the bill (H. R. No. 941) to amend

that the Speaker of the House bad signed the

The next amendment was in section three, certain acts in relation to the Navy and Marine now made section two, lines four, five, and six, and they were thereupon signed by the Pres

following enrolled bills and joint resolutions; corps.

to strike out the words, "and the ninth secThe bill provides that from and after its

ident pro tempore of the Senate: tion of an act entitled · An act to amend cer. passage the Marine corps shall consist of the tain acts in relation to the Navy,' approved Thomas Connolly;

A bill (H. R. No. 676) granting a pension to number of officers, non-commissioned officers, March 2, 1867, are,” and to insert the word and musicians authorized by the act for the “is ;", and in line nine, after the word "re- of twenty acres of land in the military reser

A bill (H. R. No. 938) to authorize the sale increase of the Marine corps of the United | pealed," to strike out the following proviso: States, approved March 2, 1847, and the acts

vation at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas ;

Provided, The repeal of said section shall not be previous thereto, and of fifteen hundred pri

A bill (H. R. No. 201) declaratory of the construed to increase the pay now allowed by law to vates ; but the commissions of officers now in officers promoted in accordance with its provisions.

law in regard to officers cashiered or dismissed the Marine corps are not to be vacated by this So that the section will read :

from the Army by the sentence of a general act, and no appointment is to be made in any. That the second section of act entitled : An act to

court-martial; of the grades of the said corps until the num- increase the pay of midshipmen and others,"approved

A bill (H. R. No. 1119) for the registration ber in the corps is reduced below the number March 3, 1865, is hereby repealed.

or enrollment of certain foreign vessels ; herein provided for each of the grades.

The amendment was agreed to. .

A joint resolution (S. R. No. 139) escluding No appointment of engineers is to be made The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The morn.

from the Electoral College votes of States in either of the grades of the corps until the

lately in rebellion which shall not bave been ing hour having expired, the unfinished businumber is reduced below that provided in the ness of Saturday, being the funding bill, is now

reorganized ; first section of the act to regulate the appoint- before the Senate.

A joint resolution (H. R. No. 201) in relament and pay of engineers in the Navy of the Mr. DRAKE. As this is a bill of very great

tion to Rock Island bridge; United States, approved August 31, 1842, | public importance, reducing the expenses of

public importance, reducing
the expenses of izing the issue of clothing to company F,

A joint resolution (H. R. No. 281) anthor. and the number so authorized is to be based the Navy more than half a million dollars a upon the number of steamships now in com- year, and conforming its official personnel to

eighteenth regiment United States infantry;

and mission, and the grade of third assistant engi- the reduction of the number of seamen in the neer is abolished.

A bill (H. R. No. 1099) for the relief of Navy which Congress has already made at this

Wait Talcott. The third section proposes to repeal the session, I ask the honorable Senator from Ohio second section of an act entitled “An act to in charge of the funding bill to allow us to go

HOUSE BILLS REFERRED. increase the pay of midshipmen and others,'' through with the amendments which the com. The joint resolution (H. R. No. 335) for the approved March 3, 1865, and tbe ninth section mittee have reported, which will probably take || protection of settlers on the Cherokee neutral of an aet entitled "An act to amend certain but a few minutes, and let the bill be sent back ll lands, in Kansas, was read twice by its title,

NAVY AND MARINE CORPS.

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and referred to the Committee on Indian first place, we should be quite as likely, because a new fund, payable at the pleasure of the Affairs.

the people wouldreason, " If I should get my United States after twenty, thirty, and forty The joint resolution (H. R. No. 837) con- money at that time, very well; but if not, I go years, but to change the character of the pay. tinuing the retining of bullion in the Mint of on precisely as if this limit had not been placed ment; in other words, that if we have the right the United States and branches, was read upon the bill originally." In my judgment, now to pay the five-twenties in lawful money twice by its title, and referred to the Commit- we had very much better pay the six per cent. of the United States, which is worth, say seventy tee on Finance.

interest, as we are paying it, for a few years cents to the dollar, we will make an agreement The bill (H. R. No. 1428) authorizing the longer, than put the control of the finances, of upon this occasion to pay it, 'not in lawful admission in evidence of copies of certain the funds, so called, out of our hands for the money, but in coin; to make a new contract papers, documents, and entries, was read period of twenty years. Remember that when with our creditors, and, as the Senator from iwice by its title, and referred to the Commit- we have once transposed these bonds in this Maine says, extend the time from two years, tee on the Judiciary.

way, they are no longer within our control for in fact, two, three, and five years, payable now THE FUNDING BILL.

the long periods that we tix. If this country at the pleasure of the United States, up to

becomes as prosperous as I believe it will The Senate, as in Committee of the Whole,

twenty years, and debar ourselves of the priv. within ten years from this period, if it arrives ilege of making payment to the creditors in resumed the consideration of the bill (S. No. at that point of prosperity, wbich we may well that time, and agree to pay upon that twenty 207) for funding the national debt and for the foresee for it, with our troubles settled, and years' security five per cent. in coin. conversion of the notes of the United States, everything going on as it did, I believe that I for one am totally unwilling to make any the pending amendment being on the amend.

within ten years from this time the credit of such contract. I believe with the Senator ment reported by Mr. SHERMAN, from the Com.

this country will be rivaled by the credit of no mittee on Finance, as a substitute for the bill.

from Maine that it is possible at least, I do country on the face of the earth, and that it Mr. HENDERSON. I move to amend the

not say that it is probable, but it is possiblewill be perfectly easy for us to borrow money, that with lessened expenditures of the Governamendment in line nine by striking out “ five”

if we are disposed to borrow it to take up the and iyserting four and a half;': in line ten,

ment, with economy on our part, and with an debt that falls due, the accruing debt, upon after the word “four," by striking out the

intention to pay off the public debt at an early terms most favorable to ourselves, and at the day, with prosperity in the country, good crops, words - and a half;' and in line eleven by || lowest rate of interest. Believing that for the and a revival of industry, we may possibly be striking out four'' and inserting " three and sake of putting out a bill at the present time able to borrow money within twenty years for a hall;" so that the clause will read:

for any purpose, either to affect the mind of far less than five per cent. Suppose such The issue of bonds falling due in twenty years shall the public at this particular crisis, or for the should be the case, we shall by this bill have buar interest at four and half per cent.; bonds fall

still better purpose of reducing the interest, I || tied up our hands in such a way that it will be ing duo in thirty years shall bear interest at four per cent,; and bonds falling due in forty years shall bear

have not been able to persuade myself that utterly impossible for us to do it. We have interest at three and a half per cent., which said what we should gain for a short period in inter- changed this contract, which we may now bonds shall be exempt from taxation, &c.

est by the reduction of one per cent. would, liquidate in lawful money of the United States, I should like to have the yeas and nays on by any means, pay us for putting the control into a gold bond, binding ourselves to pay the this proposition.

of these large sums of money out of our hands principal in gold. We shall then be obligated The yeas and nays were ordered. for so long a period as twenty years.

for twenty years to pay five per cent., when in Mr. FESSENDEN. I shall feel disposed to Now, sir, this is an opinion which I state for all probability we may be able to borrow money vote for this amendment if the bill is to stand what it is worth. It is my settled conviction, at three and a half or four per cent. Even if as it does now, issuing bonds at twenty, thirty, and I know it to be the settled conviction of we could borrow it at four per cent. it would and forty years; but I have an amendment to men wiser than myself. For that purpose I || be a very large saving. Then we further oblipropose which I think ought to be made to the propose to offer the amendment I have sug- gate ourselves upon the thirty-year bonds to bill, and if that amendment be adopted I shall gested to the Senate, and see what the Senate pay four and a half per cent., and upon the pot vote for this amendment because I think it think of it, and upon the vote on that will forty-year bonds to pay four per cent. I think would be limiting the interest too much. I depend my vote upon my friend's amendment that that interest ought to be reduced. I do propose to amend the bill, when I have an to reduce the interest. If my amendment pre. not know that I desire especially a funding of opportunity, in the first section, line five, by || vails, I shall let the interest stand as it does the public debt under a proposition such as is inserting after the word “after," the words now; if not, I shall vote for the Senator's || contained in this amendment. It is too much ten years and payable after, so that it will | amendment.

interest. read, redeemable in coin at the pleasure of Mr. HENDERSON. I shall not argue this Mr. FESSENDEN. It is already funded. the United States after ten years, and payable | financial subject. I did not suppose, a short Mr. HENDERSON. It is true it is already after twenty, thirty, and forty years respect- time since, that anything would be done upon funded; and although we are paying six per ively. If that amendment should be adopted, these bills at the present session; but it seems cent. upon it, yet we certainly do have the I should be willing to vote for the rates of inter- to be the desire of the chairman of the Finance advantage, in my judgment, of the right to pay est as they stand now in the bill, and think Committee at least to put before the creditors it off in lawful money. I do not desire now to that would be as well as we could do.

of the United States a proposition for funding go into the discussion of that question. I disI am opposed to taking off the limit of ten their debt, and for the reduction of the rate of cussed it at an early part of the session, whether years. As our financial system stands at the interest. At an early part of the session, on to the satisfaction of any member of the Sen. present time it is a perfectly fixed and stable the 21st of January last, I introduced a bill, the ate or not it is now unnecessary to inquire. I system. We have, in reality, only two kinds second section of which provided for the fund. do not desire to renew the discussion. But of funds, the five-twenties, so called, redeem- || ing of the public debt,

this is a proposition made to the creditors. It able after five years, and payable in twenty "Principal and interest to be paid in coin, and

is not obligatory upon the creditors to take it. years, and the ten-forties, redeemable after ten bearing interest at a rate not exceeding three and a It is not mandatory upon them. We do not and payable in forty years. I think ten years

half per cent., payablo semi-annually, the same to pretend to force them to take this course. We is the furthest point to which we ought to go

be paid in fifty years from their date, but releemable
at the pleasure of the Government after ten years

do not do as some Governments have done, and put out of our hands the power to redeem. from the date of issue, which said bonds the Sec- and, in fact, as the English Government has The system as it stands now was predicated retary may dispose of at not less than their par done on several occasions. Although we lear upon the idea of controllability; that our funds value," &c.

the credit of England boasted of in our counrea- The Committee on Finance reported a bill try so much, they have actually put their credsonable time, be within our control; that if a for funding the debt-I do not remember the itors in a position upon several occasions to beiter state of things occurred, as we believed time-at five per cent. I desire simply to state, | compel them to take a fund with a smaller rate a beller state of things would occur, and the without taking up any of the time of the Senate of interest. country became stable and prosperous again, || during such hot weather as this in the discus- I do not advocate any such legislation on our it would be perfectly easy for us then to reduce sion of a proposition of this character, that a part. I do not think it is necessary. I did the rate of interest, and reduce it materially, | large portion of the people of the United not advocate it before and I do not now. I and place our funds on a very different footing || States believe that about two thousand million do not desire to make it obligatory on our from that on which they now stand. That is a dollars of our public debt is payable in lawful creditors to reduce their interest or to confispower, and an important power, which those money; in other words, in greenbacks. A cate any part of their indebtedness. I think who had charge of the finances thought should | large number of them also believe that the it is bad legislation, but if we are to repudiate always be retained as far as possible. I pre- Government may properly issue any quantity | any part of our debt we shall do it after it sume of United States notes for the payment of the becomes perfectly manifest that we cannot pay

the interest, principle; and yet the first section of this bill

that we abandons that idea and carries the lowest point | pay the five-twenties in lawful money of the Uni- five-twenties can be paid in lawful money, reforward for ten years more, so that the bonds ted States, but that it would be bad faith to ex- pudiators. I for one say that I have no feelwe may put out now are not to be redeemable ceed in the issue of lawful money $400,000,000; | ing of that kind, although I believe that the within twenty years, or only after that time has but that with an outstanding circulation of contract is such that they can be lawfully sa expired. Tihink that that is inexpedient and $400,000,000 we may proceed from year to paid, and believing it, of course, I never could unuecessary.

year to pay off the greenbacks in tive-twenties. consent to such rates of interest as are preI know the answer that may be given. It is In this coutrariety of opinion a proposition is scribed in this bill, especially as the Senator that we shall not be likely to negotiate the now presented to fund the public debt, includ. from Maine says, if the time of payment is to bonds with such a provision. I think, in the li ing the five-twenties, in a new set of bonds or be so long prolonged. Now, inasmuch as this

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mere proposition to the creditors, and United States, after ten years, and payable after due sooner than the old one. That is a com they can take it or not take it, I do not think twenty, thirty, and forty years respectively.” clusive argument against it. we have much to gain by it. For myself, I Mr. SHERMAN. I wish to submit to the When I found that Congress was not willing would rather the creditors should refuse to Senate a few considerations that bear directly to take my legal opinion as to the right of the fund than to fund under the proposition of this on this proposition, and trust, on account of Government of the United States to pay the bill. I must say that the securities this bill the importance of the subject, that Senators five-twenties in lawful money I as a matter of will give them will be infinitely better to the will give them such weight as they merit. course was compelled by these reasons to waive creditors than the present securities. In other The proposition to issue bond redeemable my opinion and favor a longer bond in order words, this is a bad contract on the part of the at the pleasure of the United States after ten to make an additional inducement for the fundGyvernment; it is a contract we, as guardians years was the original proposition made by me ing of the debt. The Senator from Maine of the public interest, ought not to be willing in January last. It is one which I submitted, seems to think that the United States may very to make, and I for one, being unwilling to make and which, for the reasons stated already by soon negotiate a bond at less than five per cent. it, move this amendment, and I hope it will be the Senator from Maine, met my judgment at I do not believe that time will arrive in this adopted.

the time. But there was great difference of country for thirty or forty years. My own Mr. CATTELL. Of the two propositions, | opinion in regard to terms and conditions of impression is that the rate of interest cannot the one presented by the Senator from Missouri the various bonds proposed to be issued. That be kept below that in this country. Although and the one presented by the Senator from difference existed in the Committee on Finance, we are growing rapidly we are yet a vast new Maine, I very greatly prefer that presented by and after the fullest consideration I was willing | country, with undeveloped enterprises demandthe Senator from Maine. There is a manifest to waive my opinion and vote for a twenty-yearing capital, and a great deal of it. I do not propriety in holding the control of this large five per cent. bond in connection with a propo. believe that in this country the rate of interest indebtedness, if we can possibly do it at this sition to issue a thirty-year bond at four and will fall below five per cent. for a generation rate of interest, and succeed in funding the one half per cent., and a furty-year bond at or two generations of men, because the de. debt, or, as the Senator from Maine says, in four per cent. I will state the reason which mand for capital is so great and the accumula. retunding it. The proposition of the Senator induced me to change my position on this ques- tion is so litile. I think five per cent. will be from Missouri proceeds on the opinion which tion. In order to make this funding a success the lowest rate of interest thai can be had for he expresses here that we may lawfully pay the one of two things must be done. One is for many years to come; and if we desire to make five-twenty bonds in lawful money. To that you to declare that the bonds of the United this funding scheme a success it is idle for us proposition of the Senator from Missouri I States now redeemable may be paid in the law. to issue a bond running for a shorter time than respectfully enter my dissent. I believe, in ful money of the United States, and if that is | twenty years, and bearing a less rate of interthe language of the platform of the great party done we can undoubtedly receive enough money

est than five per cent. which the majority in this Chamber represent, for a five per cent. ten-year bond to pay off the My friend from New Jersey said that he that we are bound to maintain the public faith || principal of the five-twenty bonds. But the desired to make the best terms possible for the and honor. and to meet our obligations not Senate were indisposed to adopt any such view. United States. The Committee on Finance, only in the letter but in the spirit of the laws No doubt a large majority of the Senate is with possibly a single exception, agreed that a under which they were contracted; and so long against any such proposition. Therefore there | less rate than five per cent and a shorter time as I occupy a seat in this body I cannot con- is no inducement for the holder of a five-twenty than twenty years would not do, and I will say, sent, under any conceivable circumstances, to bond bearing six per cent. interest in gold to as my friend from Maine knows also, that that give my sanction to the payment of the public take a five per cent. bond unless you give to him is the opinion of the Secretary of the Treasury. debt in anything else than that in which the a longer time for it to run. Let us reason on It is true his opinion would not prevail against Government of the United States has always this point precisely as we would if we were the our deliberate judgment; but we can only make paid its bonded debt, in coin, the legal tender of holders of five-twenty six per cent. bonds. this negotiation through' him. He is limited the country and of the world. I therefore must The holder of such a bond will say "the United || by this bill so that he cannot sell a single bond vote against the proposition of the Senator from States offers me a five per cent. twenty-year unless he can redeem an equal amount of fiveMissouri, because I believe the rate of interest | bond; what reason is there why I should give | twenties. He must, therefore, sell them acwhich he proposes is so low as to entirely up a six per cent. for a five per cent. bond? cording to the market rate, now 113 or 114. defeat the operation of this bill. I believe all One answer is that by this new bond the time A five per cent, ten-year bond cannot be sold the members of the Finance Committee, with within which it may be redeemed is extended. at that rate unless you give it additional value. the exception of the Senator from Missouri, The present bond is redeemable on the pay. You limit him by the terms of this bill to sell. are under the impression that the terms pro- ment of its face in gold according to the claim || ing the new bonds at a rate which will take up posed in the bill under consideration are the of a majority of the Senate. Why, then, sur. an equal amount of five-twenties. He cannot shortest in point of years and the lowest in render my six per cent. bond and take a five sell them at par in lawful money, he can only point of interest under which the public debt per cent.? The answer is that an extension of sell them in such a way as to take up an equal inay be refunded. time is had, the redemption of the bond is post

amount of five-twenties. He cannot do that, It is perfectly proper that those who enter- poned. The five-twenty bond becomes pay- because he cannot get anybody to give that tain the views of the Senator from Maine, who able in 1882, and this new bond is not redeem. || price for a five per cent. ten-year bond, and prefer that the debt should remain in its pres- able until 1888. There is an extension of surrender a six per cent bond whieh has fifent position at the interest of six per cent. time, which gives additional value always to a teen years yet to run. rather than refunded under this bill fixing bond.

In regard to all these details, let me say to the time so long as twenty years, without any Another argument in favor of these new Senators who have not examined this subject, option of the Government

, should be opposed bonds, and which will induce many people to and probably will not give to it the considera to the bill; but whoever is in favor of refund- fund in them, will be this: the old bonds are tion we have done, that in my judgment, unless ing the public debt at five per cent. interest, taxable by the United States to a certain ex- they are clearly convinced by reasons given, it with a bond of positive conditions, payable in tent; we now levy an income tax on them, and is better to take the terms of the bill as reported twenty years, should vote in favor of this bill, the House of Representatives, by a decided here by the committee after careful and mature in my judgment. If you attach to it any other vote, directed a bill to be reported levying an consideration rather than make changes, unless conditions or any other rate of interest I fear income tax of ten per cent. on all bonds issued the changes are defended and maintained by that you defeat the working of the bill. It is by the United States. Although this proposi- reasons that approve themselves to their conwith this view that I sball vote against the tion never will meet the sanction of the Senate, sciences. If I thought it possible, I should be proposition of the Senator from Missouri ; and in my judgment, yet it tends to impair the very glad to negotiate a shorter bond, but in I hope it will not prevail.

market value of the five-twenty bonds, and my judgment you cannot negotiate on the basis The question being taken by yeas and nays, the holders of those bonds, in order to get a of this bill in exchange for an equal amount resulted-yeas 8, nays 25; as follows:

bond which is definite on its face, clear in its of five-twenties a bond more favorable to the YEAS-Messrs. Buckalew, Cole, Conkling. Davis, terms, which limits the power of the United Government than a twenty year five per cent. Henderson, Hendricks, Patterson of Tennessee, and States to tax it to the same income tax that is bond. Vickers-8. NAYS-Messrs. Anthony, Cameron, Cattell, Con

levied on all other incomes, will take this new Mr. FESSENDEN. On looking further at ness, Cragin, Drake, Ferry, Fessenden, Howard, security, and it will have an additional value this provision I find it is new; it does not imMorgan, Morrill of Maine, Morrill of Verinont, Mor- on that account. ton, Nye,, Osborn, Ramsey, Rice, Ross, Sherman,

pose upon the Government the obligation of Suunner, Van Winkle, Wade, Welch, Williams and

These two incidents of the new bond, paying the principal of these bonds at any time. Wilson-25.

together with the clear stipulation that the It takes what I believe is the English system, ABSENT - Messrs. Bayard, Chandler, Corbett, Dixon, Doolittle, Edmundis. Fowler, Frelinghuysen,

principal and interest sball be paid in gold, give the idea of a permanent debt. It says reGrimes, Harlan, Howe, McCreery, McDonald, Nor

to the new bond a value which, in my judgment, deemable after twenty, thirty, and forty years ton, Patterson of New Hampsbire. Pomeroy, Sauls- will induce the great body of the holders of the respectively.' Redeemable when ? At no bury, Sprague, Stewart, Thayer, Tipton, Trumbull, five-twenties to convert them into the new specific time; but it simply says: “ If you take Willey, and Yates-24.

bond without any other stipulation or any this bond we will not redeem it before twenty So the amendment to the amendment was threat or any other measure.

years, or thirty years, or forty years shall bare rejected.

If the amendment of the Senator from Maine expired, as the case may be, and after that we Mr. FESSENDEN. I move to amend the ': prevails, and you reduce the running of these will redeem it when we can." The bonds amendment by inserting in the fifth line of the bonds to ten years, the new bonds will fall which were first issued during the war were first section after the word “after,'' the words i due before the old ones. The old bonds would redeemable after five years, and payable in í ten years and payable after;" so as to read fall due in 1882, and the new one would fall twenty years, as I recollect; that is, we became "redeemable in coin at the pleasure of the i due in 1878 so that the new hond would fall li absolutely bound to pay them at the end of

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would credit i'ihink we had better entering the we, mbesa President, what I wish to impress

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twenty years. It is a question to be considered to the demands for money, people would just from the Government the power, whatever
whether in our country, where money is chang. as willingly, in my judgment, have a bond may be the state of things, to take these bonds
ing hands so rapidly, a bond which imposes no liable to be redeemed in ten years as in twenty out of the market and stop the interest on
obligation to pay at any specific time would be provided ihat the bond itself had what they them. I know that was the old system, but I
favorably received. I propose to modify my considered ample security for its redemption wish to adhere to the system we adopted since
amendment by substituting for the last word, in the the obligor, whether they war .
"after,'' the word “in; so as to read “re.
deemable after ten years, and payable in twenty, stand as they are for any purpose whatever on the Senate is the importance to this coun.
thirty, and forty years respectively."'.

except for the mere temporary purpose of try, in my judgment the great importance, of Mr. SHERMAN. I have all the loan laws making an impression on the public mind, 1 retaining control over its bonds in regard to before me, and I will state to the Senator from which in my judgment amounts to just nothing the time of paying them. We have it now. Maine that, with two or three exceptions, their at all. Nothing will be affected by it at the The five-twenties are becoming redeemable. provisions have been in this form, redeemable present period by changing our bonds from one It is in our power to pay them; but, as I after a certain time.

condition to another. The effect will be to remarked before, we are not compelled to pay Mr. FESSENDEN. And payable when ? put off the period when we shall have power them. I wish to retain that principle. The

Mr. SHERMAN. Payable at the pleasure to take them into our own bands by payment. moment you depart from it, whatever may be of the United States after a certain time. Even I am strongly impressed with the belief that I the state of our credit, however flush we may in regard to the bonds redeemed in July last am right about this matter; but whether I am be in funds, we cannot take up our obligations, we were not bound to pay them unless we or not will be for the Senate to judge.

because the very fact that they are not payable chose. I have here the aci of 1790, the original Mr. SHERMAN. I have looked over the until after a certain time in the future swells funding act of Hamilton which made the same loan laws, and I find that all the loans of the the value of your paper, and you cannot take provision.

ited States up to 1862 were in the forin it up unless you go into the market and buy it Mr. FESSENDEN. My idea is that we contained in this bill as to redeemability. The at the mercy of the holders; whereas if you should follow out the system which was inaugu- loan of 1881 now running is not payable in fix a short time and adhere to the system of rated at the beginning of the rebellion. It 1881, but payable at the pleasure of the United controllability which has been adoped, the remight have done in old times when our debt States after 1881.

sult is that in a short period the Government was very small and we were borrowing small Mr. FESSENDEN. I am aware of that. can take up its bonds, and, of course, a large sums to leave the time of payment indefinite; Up to that period the bonds were always so premium will exist upon them. Then when but my judgment is that if you want bonds to issued, making no difference between redeem. the time arrives, if we have the money we pay be taken you should fix a definite period when ability and payability; they were all redeem it; but we know that if our credit is good it they become payable, and that it will not do to able and payable at the same moment, and it will be very easy to substitute a similar bond. issue a bond which is simply redeemable at the would amount to the same thing. But when There is no question about that. The interest pleasure of the Government, because that is we found that we were to be so largely in debt, is what the creditor looks to, and the right to the amount of this bill as it stands. I think the having a war upon us the end of which we pay off within a reasonable time is what the people prefer to take a bond which has some could not foresee, the system was adopted of debtor wants. I do not know that it is worth detinite period of payment fixed. I still adhere fixing a short time within which the bonds while for me to say anything more about it. to what the Senator has said to be my original might be redeemable if the Government was It is for the Senate to say. I do not like to opinion. He says truly that this bill confers able to redeem them and another time when abandon the system which we have adopted. additional advantages upon the takers of these the Government would be obliged to pay. That Mr. MORGAN. The amendment proposed bonds. One which is a very important one is is the system which we then adopted, and by the Senator from Maine is more advantagethat it settles the doubt as to the medium in which we have carried through. In my judg- ous to the Government than the bill. That which they are payable, whether in coin or in ment it was one of the wise ideas of the then was the case with the amendment of the Sencurrency. If the holders exchange the present Secretary of the Treasury who had recourse to ator from Missouri, and that is the real trouble bonds for those issued under this act they get it, and I have always believed that we ought || about them. They are too advantageous to rid of that ditficulty. Then there is a limitation not to depart from it, and that we should not the Government, for neither of them can be upon the power of taxation by the General issue long bonds which were entirely out of availed of. I should gladly have voted for the Government which does not apply to the other our power for the whole time they have to run. amendment of the Senator from Missouri, bebonds. Thus making these two things definite Mr. EDMUNDS. If the Senator will per- cause I would much prefer that the Governand taking the bonds out of the domain of legis- mit me in that connection I will say that is the ment should pay four and a half, four, and lation or ot temporary excitement or temporary actual form in which the form was actually three and a half per cent. per annum, than to purposes, you give to them a character of sta- issued. The bond reads “redeemable at the pay five, four and a half, and four. So by this bility which at present our public obligations pleasure of the United States after the 30th amendment there is a great advantage reserved very much need. I think with these changes of April, 1867, and payable the 1st day of to the Government in having control of all its it becomes an object with the holders of the May, 1882.” That is the express form of the debt in ten years, so that it can at the end of bonds to exchange them, and that they would

ten years pay it; but it is impossible to make probably--because it is all mere probability

Mr. SHERMAN. The United States never the loans it that advantage is retained, in my take the bonds which they hold now, redeem- stipulated to pay money at a specific day until judgment. able but not exactly payable, floating in the it was done uuder the severe pressure of the i suppose, sir, that if there is anything well market, subject to all the contingencies, and war, and we never ought to do it again. Sup: settled among financial men and in ihe country exchange them for ten-year bonds on these pose a great amount of bonds, $500,000,000 || generally, it is that we are not disposed to pay terms.

or $1,000,000,000, should fall due when the off a public debt of $2,000,000,000 rapidly. But, sir, I recur to my original proposition. five-twenties would be due, the 1st of May, | The Secretary of the Treasury commenced it I believe it would be better for the United 1882, the United States are compelled on that rapidly, but Congress has stopped him, and the States to let their bonds already funded and day to pay this vast sum of money, because general judgment of the country is that the not yet payable for many years stand as they they have no power as before to pay it at their payment of the debt should be spread over a are at present. I believe the five-twenty bonds, pleasure after a specific day, but they must pay long period and should be very slow until the although redeemable, do not become payable on that day. That is a very severe and oner- country, especially the South, has more ability for thirteen or fourteen years to come, so that ous burden on the Government of the United to pay than it now has. If that is the case, we have an ample margin. Our obligations | States, and the stipulation that was put in the what are you to do? are not pressing upon us. It would be better, five-twenty bonds was an advantage to the Gentlemen object to this rate of interest; in my judgment, to let them remain as they creditor which at that time the United States but you now pay six per cent. in gold; and if are funded for the present, rather than make was compelled to insert, that they would pay I am correct in saying that there will be no an effort at this time, when the credit of the the money at a certain time whether it was great attempt to pay the debt, then it will at United States, owing to certain circumstances, able to pay or not. Now, however, the United that rate take fourteen years, and we shall have accidents, and considerations to which I need States is at peace, and I think we ought to go to pay six per cent. for fourteen years and pay not advert, does not stand as it ought to stand, back to the old system, make our bonds, like it in gold. I prefer to make the time twenty and defer that effort to refund them until a few the bonds of other Governments, payable at years and the interest five per cent. years longer. I would prefer to pay the addi- the pleasure of the Government after a speci: Certainly, Mr. President, there are a great tional per cent. for a few years rather than put fied time. The specified time is for the ben- many very intelligent men all over the country ourselves in a position where we could not lay efit of the holder of the bond, within which his who believe that if Congress will give the our hands on any of these bonds, whatever investment may not be interfered with. The option this debt can be exchanged for a lower night be our condition and circumstances, and time after that is for the benefit of the Govern- rate of interest. Will Congress hesitate to whatever might be the state of the money ment, which may not find it convenient to pay | give the option? We do not propose to commarket, and however higb our credit might be, at the stipulated time. Therefore the language || pel anybody to make the exchange. We do until the expiration of such a long period of used in this section is introduced following the not propose to say to the holders of our bonds time.

uniform language of all loan laws with the that if they do not take these new bonds they That is the answer I make. I do not agree exception of those in regard to the five-twen- shall be paid in greenbacks. We do not prowith the honorable Senator that the change ties and ten-forties.

pose to repudiate. We propose to pay our would necessarily affect their negotiability,

Mr. FESSENDEN. That is the very ques. debts honestly, in the spirit in which they were because in the constantly fluctuating state of tion I am trying to test in the Senate. If we contracted. things in this country, particularly with regard go back to the old system we necessarily take It seems to me to be proper that Congress

contract.

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