the allowing of this bill to come up. I beg him not to interpose an objection.

Mr. POMEROY. With the understanding that it is not to be discussed I shall not object.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Will the Senate unanimously consent to take up the bill at this time?

Mr. MORGAN. I should like to hear the title of the bill.

The CHIEF CLERK. A bill (H. R. No. 941) to amend certain acts in relation to the Navy and Marine corps.

By unanimous consent, the consideration of the bill was resumed as in Committee of the Whole, the pending question being on the amendment of the Committee on Naval Affairs to the fourth section, to strike out in line three the words "are hereby" and insert "shall on the 1st day of November next be;" and after the word "repealed" to insert "except as to assistant surgeons;' so as to make the section

Mr. MORGAN and Mr. CHANDLER, from the Committee on Commerce, submitted amendments intended to be proposed to House bill No. 1341; which were referred to the Committee on Appropriations.

Mr. WILSON, from the Committee on Military Affairs and the Militia, to whom was referred the bill (H. R. No. 451) providing for the sale of the arsenal grounds at St. Louis and Liberty, Missouri, and for other purposes, reported it with amendments.

He also, from the same committee, to whom was referred the petition of George Fuerst, praying to be allowed transportation to Fort Vancouver, Washington Territory, asked to be discharged from its further consideration; which was agreed to.

Mr. WILLEY, from the Committee on the District of Columbia, to whom was referred the bill (S. No. 310) to incorporate the Georgetown and Washington Canal and Sewerage Company, reported it without amendment, and submitted a report; which was ordered to be printed.

Mr. TRUMBULL, from the Committee on the Judiciary, to whom were referred the following message, memorials, and petition, asked to be discharged from their further consideration; which was agreed to:

A message of the President of the United States of February 19, 1868, communicating a list of the names of counterfeiters pardoned by the President since May 1, 1865;

Memorials of citizens of Louisiana, protesting against the reconstruction laws of Congress; and

A petition of citizens of New York praying an extension of the time of the fifty per cent. clause of the bankrupt law.

He also, from the same committee, to whom was referred the bill (S. No. 177) regulating the rights of property of married women in the District of Columbia, reported it with amend

Mr. WILLEY, from the Committee on Patents and the Patent Office, reported a joint resolution (S. R. No. 161) providing that a certain part of the act making appropriations for sundry civil expenses of the Government for the year ending June 30, 1869, and for other purposes," shall not take effect until the 1st day of March 1869, which was read and passed to a second reading.

AGRICULTURAL REPORT.

Mr. CAMERON submitted the following

was read twice by its title, referred to the Committee on Commerce, and ordered to be printed.

Mr. COLE asked, and by unanimous consent obtained, leave to introduce a joint resolution (S. R. No. 160) relating to the Territorial Central Pacific Railway Company; which was read twice by its title, referred to the Committee on Military Affairs and the Militia, and ordered to be printed.

Mr. MCCREERY asked, and by unanimous consent obtained, leave to introduce a bill (S. No. 620) for the relief of Thomas Menarch and William P. Mobberly; which was read twice by its title, and referred to the Committee on Finance.

Mr. CATTELL asked, and by unanimous consent obtained, leave to introduce a bill (S. No. 621) authorizing the Manufacturers' National Bank of New York to change its location; which was read twice by its title, referred to the Committee on Finance, and ordered to be printed.

MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE.

A message from the House of Representa tives, by Mr. MCPHERSON, its Clerk, announced that the House had passed a bill (H. R. No. 1431) granting a pension to Emmelene H. Rudd, widow of the late Commodore John Rudd, deceased, in which it requested the concurrence of the Senate.

AMERICAN STEAM LINE TO EUROPE.

Mr. POMEROY. I move to take up House bill No. 939.

The motion was agreed to; and the consideration of the bill (H. R. No. 939) to provide for an American line of mail and emigrant passenger steamships between New York and one or more European ports, was resumed as in Committee of the Whole.

and been reported from the Committee on Post
Offices and Post Roads, I hope it may pass at

once.

Mr. CONNESS. Mr. President, I wish to say that upon this subject of aiding in the establishment of American lines of sea-going steamships, there is no one who has a deeper interest in favor of such establishment of lines than myself; and my course upon this bill, whatever it shall be, is guided by the interest I feel in the accomplishment of that end, and not by opposition to any particular scheme, except so far as that scheme opposed may be in the way of the establisement of proper lines. I was unfortunate in not being in the Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, of which I am a member, when the committee concluded to report this bill, though I was in the committee on other occasions when it was considered. I may say here that I would not have consented to its being reported. I do not know to what extent it had the indorsement of the committee. Perhaps the honorable chairman of the committee [Mr. RAMSEY] can state that.

Mr. RAMSEY. I think it met the approbation of a quorum of the committee then present.

Mr. CONNESS. I should like, in the first place, to have the bill read as printed for the Senate. It is not very long, and its reading will not take much time. After it has been read I will proceed with what I have to say. The Chief Clerk read the bill.

Mr. CONNESS. Mr. President, I believe that it is a disgraceful fact to this nation that there is not an American steam line upon the Atlantic ocean. Whatever aid should be required from the public Treasury to establish such a line or lines in my opinion would be a good investment; but the plan, according to which the bill proposes to provide for the establishment of a line, is one that does not meet my approbation. Let us see what that is.

Mr. POMEROY. I only wish to say that this is an effort to establish an American line of steamships. It is giving that line in part what we have been giving to foreign lines in The plan proposed in this bill is that the years back. I suppose every member of the company shall be guarantied for a period of Senate has read this bill, and I think it is twenty years in a claim upon the weekly or easily to be understood. For some years past semi-weekly postages, both the inland and sea we have been giving to a European line all the postages, until such period as the sea postages postage that was earned. To two of the lines alone shall make up the necessary amount, that we have employed we have given over upon the credit of which bonds to the amount five hundred thousand dollars a year, to the of between four and five million dollars are to Cunard line nearly three hundred and fifty thou- be issued by the company, for which the bill sand dollars, and to the Inman line $200,000. provides that the Government shall be in no This is what we have been paying for the last wise responsible, but they are required to be three years on the average. It was thought a registered at the Post Office Department, and year ago that we might establish an American countersigned by the Postmaster General, or line and not give them any more than we are head of that Department, which, if done, is to giving European lines. This company applied be done for the purpose of giving them credit for a subsidy something like the Pacific line, in the world's markets without fixing any rebut as the committee thought it was inoppor- sponsibility upon which that credit is to be tune to press that question the House of Rep-based. That is the credit derived from that resentatives have finally sent us a bill giving them no subsidy, but simply securing to them for a term of years the postages accruing on the letters that they carry, to the amount of $400,000 a year. That sum is to be sequestered by the Post Office Department, and to be paid out for the services of this company according to the terms of the bill. There is no liability of the Government beyond that. There is no indorsement of the bonds. There is no liability beyond what is received from the postages on the letters they carry, and when they amount to over four hundred thousand dollars the balance goes to the Government, and in no event in future years can they get over four hundred thousand dollars, but they can get the postages to that amount, to be held by the Post Office Department, and paid out annually in discharging the interest of the bonds that the company are allowed to issue, the Government not guarantying the bonds, not becoming security for the payment of either principal or interest, but only holding the postages as a security for the interest on the bonds the company issue.

I know it is the morning hour, and every Senator dislikes at this time to listen to extended remarks; but as this bill has passed the House of Representatives unanimously I

particular source; I mean the official indorse-
ment. Now, suppose this company should
fail and these bonds should depreciate in the
market and remain unpaid, which is not, I ap-
prehend, an impossibility, what would the state
of the case be? Bonds floating around the
markets of the world, registered, registered in
the Post Office Department of the United States
of America, countersigned by the head of that
Department-

Mr. POMEROY. The Senator may not be
aware that that is not the provision of the bill.
They are not to be countersigned by the Post-
master General. That is not in the bill. This
is the provision:

For the protection of the holders of such bonds
they shall be severally registered at the Post Office
Department, and certified by the chief clerk of the
Department, without liability.

And that is to be put on the bond.

Mr. CONNESS. That is precisely as I have stated it. The chief clerk in the Post Office Department is the official exponent of the Postmaster General. The point I was making is this: that if these bonds are discredited we shall necessarily be discredited on their account || if we do not pay them, notwithstanding the provision that we are not to be made responsible for their payment.

I object to that point. I object, also, to the guarantee or the lien that is established for twenty years in behalf of this company upon the inland and sea postages. The postages of this country, the laws relating to them, should be left free. There should be no answer made to us here when we propose to reduce the postage, as I hope we shall do so soon, to the lowest possible amount, that there are bonds issued on the faith of these postages as now established, and that if we reduce their amount we are responsible necessarily for these bonds if we take their substance or base away. I want no impediment of that kind in the way of postal reform.

In fact, sir, if we are to have an American line or lines to compete successfully with foreign lines in the Atlantic waters, or which shall reflect credit upon the American name and nation, they must have more substantial basis than this. The company or persons who will establish them must be able to build their ships, and their ships must be of the most unquestionable character and quality.

I object to the tonnage specified here. Ships of that tonnage are not of sufficient size for this day and hour in naval architecture and for the carriage of passengers and freight.

But I have stated my principal objection, which is to the plan upon which this line is to be established. There are some details which I might object to, but my purpose is not to defeat the bill, it being near the end of the session, by consuming time. I simply wish it fairly considered and to have the Senate decide whether they are in favor of this plan for the establishment of an American line of steamships on the Atlantic ocean.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. President, I hope that this bill will pass the Senate. It has passed the House of Representatives, and I think it must commend itself to every person who feels a proper pride in having our mails carried in an American line of vessels, and who will examine the act.

There is one peculiarity about this bill, that it asks for no subsidies. It asks the Government to give nothing at all, simply to recognize this line as a line to carry the mails; that is all. By doing that we have a line of American ships carrying our own mails, the ships to be first class, to be constructed under the inspection of Government officers, and to be subject to be taken by the Government in case of necessity for its use. So far, then, as the vessels are concerned, there is every possible guard. Now, all that the line asks the Government to do is to be trustees for the bonds which this line issues; and to hold those bonds and to hold the postages as security for the payment of the interest. Mr. HOWARD. For what purpose are bonds to be issued?

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. The bonds are to be issued by the company for the purpose of constructing their vessels. There is no liability on the part of the Government. Even the failure to pay these bonds would not involve the Government in any dishonor what

ever.

Now, what is the compensation? In 1858 there was an act passed providing that when our mails were carried in an American line the parties carrying them should receive as compensation both the sea-going and inland postage; where they were carried in foreign lines they should only receive the sea postage. This bill provides that this line shall receive the inland and the sea postage until the sea postage amounts to $400,000. When it amounts to that sum then after that they are only to receive the sea postage.

Mr. FESSENDEN. Until the sea postage amounts to $400,000.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Yes, sir; until the sea postage amounts to $400,000; then the inland postage is no longer to be received. I hope there will be no opposition to this bill.

Mr. HOWARD. Do I understand that this bill provides that the Government shall stand as guarantor for the payment of the bonds ?

THE CONGRESSIONAL GLOBE.

cial Navigation Company for carrying the
mails; but instead of paying that money to
the company the Department holds it and pays
the interest on the bonds of the company.
That is the whole of it.

Mr. POMEROY. Holds it to pay the inter-
held as a sinking fund.
est on the bonds in part, and the balance is
Mr. MORTON. I am for this bill.
in favor of building up American shipping.
I am
That is my general feeling. But I desire to

ask the Senator from New Jersey a question
touching the construction of the third section
in relation to the compensation. It provides
according to a certain act of Congress ap-
that the company shall receive the postages
proved in 1858. The provision is that they
shall not receive more than is allowed by that
act. That I suppose is a general act fixing
the price of ocean postage, is it not?

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. That act provides that where the mails are carried in an American fine, that line shall be entitled to receive the sea postage and the inland postage, and that where the mails are carried in a foreign line that line shall only receive the sea postage. This third section provides that this company shall receive the sea postage and the inland postage until the sea postage amounts to $400,000 a year, and that after that it shall be restricted to the sea postage and shall not receive the inland postage.

I understand that; but
my question goes to this point: whether this
general act of 1858 fixes the rate of sea postage,
and whether if a subsequent act should be
passed making postage cheaper at the end of
five or ten years this compensation would be
governed by the rate of postage that might be
fixed in a subsequent act of Congress.

changed several times since 1858. The con-
Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. It has been
tract is made subject to such sums as may be
passed on that point.

Mr. POMEROY. We can change the rate
of postage at any time.

Mr. MORTON. That is satisfactory.

Mr. FESSENDEN. I desire to ask a question merely for information. I notice that the provision to which the Senator from New Jersey has referred is that when the sea postage amounts to $400,000 or more the company shall be confined to that, as I understand it. Suppose the postage amounts to $300,000, and the inland postage to as much more, then they are to continue to receive the whole amount,

suppose, up to the time when the sea postage alone amounts to $400,000. Is that the construction?

Mr. RAMSEY. The sea postage is twelve cents, and the inland postage but three cents, so that there could not be that equality in the aggregate of the postages that the Senator from Maine supposes.

Mr. FESSENDEN. I merely put the question by way of illustration. Is it intended that they shall receive the sea postage and the inland postage, whatever each may amount to, supposing both together may amount to $600,000, until the sea postage goes up to $400,000?

Mr. RAMSEY. The inland postage can at no time be more than one fourth of the sea postage.

Mr. FESSENDEN. But if at any time the sea postage itself amounts to double $400,000 they will be entitled to receive it. They are not limited to $400,000 at all events, as far as I can see. I merely want to know what is meant, whether it is meant that $400,000 a year shall be the limit to which they can go. If so, it ought to be expressed.

right of the company to receive the inland
Mr. NYE. The provision is that whenever
the sea postage shall amount to $400,000, the
postage shall cease. The bill fairly gives to

them the sea postage.
not objecting to it; but I ask if in the course
Mr. FESSENDEN. It may be right; I am
of ten years from the present time the sea post-
age alone should amount to double $400,000

THE CONGRESSIONAL GLOBE.

ing over them-that is $500,000 a year for ten
years. This company, without a subsidy guar-
antied of that character, but having precisely
what we give the foreign lines, now propose to
do the same thing; and I cannot see why we
should not, at least, allow them to try the
experiment. I know very well that we here-
after, in the course of ten or twelve years,
require greater speed, different kinds of ves-
sels; but that whole subject is within the con-
trol of Congress.

At a hint from the Senator from New Jer-
sey, I will not say any more.
to vote, and, as I believe the Senate understand
I see he wants
the measure, I will be contented to abide by
the vote.

Mr. CONNESS. Well, Mr. President, we
are not going to vote until this question is
discussed a little. We have had some prece-
dents in this business, and I am only a little
astonished to find gentlemen so ready to travel
out of the line of the precedents established.
We have subsidized two lines of steamships;
one is the line to Brazil for ten years; the other
the line between San Francisco, Japan, and
China, for ten years. In the one case we pay
$150,000 per annum for the first-named service;
in the second case we pay for twelve round
trips a year $500,000 per annum for a distance
exceeding six thousand miles per trip; a round
trip doubling that reaching about thirteen thou-
sand miles. This is a very considerable sub-
sidy if it be reduced to $400,000, and I should
be willing to vote them more than that. But
why shall we leave the track of these prece-
dents, I ask the Senator from Kansas?

It is very properly stated by the Senator from Vermont that twenty years of time is now a great period. Why shall we mortgage the postages of the United States for twenty years? Is it necessary for the purpose of establishing this line? The Senator from Kansas says that it is to be established against subsidized lines. That is not true, sir. There is but one subsidized line, and that subsidy is now about to be withdrawn, and will be withdrawn. The Senator shakes his head. It is to be withdrawn, sir; and some of the most successful lines now crossing the Atlantic receive no subsidy from any source. Among these are the Bremen line and the Inman line; the Inman line never received a subsidy. But I am not arguing against a subsidy because I would put an American line beyond the peradventure or question of success; but I am not in favor of voting the postages of this country for twenty years.

The Senator says that the last section provides that we may alter or amend or repeal this bill at any time; and what does it provide for otherwise in another section? That bonds for twenty years for between four and five millions of dollars shall be issued by this company based upon the postages. Suppose we change the act before that time, shall we not be responsible to the holders of those bonds? Of course we shall be.

I hope, sir, we shall not change in this respect the rule that has been established. Ten years of time is long enough. I would sooner vote $800,000 of postages for ten years than $400,000 for twenty years. Who would not? I think it would be very bad statesmanship to refuse to vote double the amount for half the time.

The navigation of the Atlantic has changed and is changing very rapidly. Within the last two years there has been a mighty change. Why is this? The whole American nation in the last five years have taken to traveling. In the last two years the travel has doubled and quadrupled; and it will go on at that rate because there is no country in the world the population of which are so well off, so able to travel, as that of ours, and navigating the Atlantic ocean is no longer a problem

of success.

But, Mr. President, if the friends of this bill are disposed to fix upon us a monopoly of the postages for twenty years with bonds to be issued based upon them, so that we are to be made responsible, then I, for one, object to the

passage of the bill in toto, and propose to dis-
cuss it.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The ques-
tion is on the amendment of the Senator from
Vermont, striking out "twenty" and insert
"ten."

Mr. CONNESS. On that I call for the yeas
and nays.

The yeas and nays were ordered; and being
taken, resulted-yeas 20, nays 17; as follows:
YEAS-Messrs. Anthony, Buckalew, Cole, Conness,
Corbett, Fessenden, Harlan, McCreery, Morgan,
Morrill of Vermont, Patterson of Tennessee, Ramsey,
Sherman, Tipton, Van Winkle, Vickers, Whyte,
Willey, Williams, and Wilson-20.

NAYS-Messrs. Cattell, Chandler, Drake, Freling-
huysen, Howard, Howe, Morrill of Maine, Morton,
Nye, Osborn, Patterson of New Hampshire, Pomeroy,
Rice, Ross, Stewart, Wade, and Welch-17.

ABSENT-Messrs. Bayard, Cameron, Conkling,
Cragin, Davis, Dixon, Doolittle, Edmunds. Ferry,
Fowler, Grimes, Henderson, Hendricks, McDonald,
Norton, Saulsbury, Sprague, Sumner, Thayer, Trum-
bull, and Yates-21.

So the amendment was agreed to.
Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont.
know that the next amendment is so import-
I do not
ant; but still I think we ought not to permit
any of these vessels to be of so low a tonnage
as two thousand tons. All the vessels that
spectable line, and one that is to grapple in
are engaged in this business are of much larger
tonnage, and if we are to make this line a re-
competition with other lines and be a success,
the ships all ought to be not less than three
thousand tons burden. I therefore move in
line five of section two to strike out the words
"five of," and in lines six and seven to strike
out" and two others of not less than two thou-
sand tons each;" so as to read: "seven first-
class sea-going steamships which shall not be
of less than three thousand tons each."

thing passed here that will be of the least bene-
Mr. NYE. I despair entirely of having any.
fit. Every effort that has been made to estab-
lish a line of steamers, when the proposition
comes before Congress, is a foot too long or
another of three thousand tons.
a foot too short or too narrow for somebody.
One man wants ships of two thousand tons and
until I have come to the conclusion that it is
So it goes on
the settled determination of the legislative
power of this country that there shall never be
another ocean steamship that has the counte-
nance and support of the Government under
our own flag. There has been a line of steam-
ers established lately across the Atlantic by
efforts made in the city of Baltimore, and yet
it does not carry the American flag except
when it enters our port. It sails under a foreign
flag. Our own stars and stripes are doomed to
banishment from the great ocean, because
provide for an American line.
there is no sort of plan upon which a majority
of Congress can be found to agree which will

presented in the bill reported by the Commit-
Now, sir, the project before the Senate as
tee on Post Offices and Post Roads was simply
this: this company proposed for the postages
for twenty years to establish a line of steamers
consisting of seven ships, which could not cost
in the market, as is well known, built in this
country, where the bill obligates them to build
them, less than $6,000,000. That is a large
outlay, an outlay that but very few men will
undertake. Now I ask my ever-ready mathe-
$400,000 for twenty years will come to.
matical friend from Vermont to see what
Mr. CONNESS. Ten years.

Mr. NYE. Twenty years; I am talking
about the bill. Now, sir, with this encourage-
ment, without the possibility of bringing the
Government into liability for one penny, this
company offer to undertake this work allowing
the power to be reserved to cancel or abolish
the contract at any time, first with the Post-
master General, and second with Congress.

Sir, what does the history of the past show
in regard to this matter? We once had one
of the best lines of steamships that this country
or any other ever saw.
ocean by foreign Powers and by individual
It was driven from the
exertions here. The history of the past shows
that those experiments have been failures where

July 15,

the Government voted millions of dollars to uphold them. Why were they failures? In the first place the outlay of the Collins line was too great, and in the next place they were run on the most extravagant plan possible, and subsequent invention, subsequent discoveries these people are ready to undertake this work. in science, have shown that ships of the same size can now be run for much less money. Hence

There are two classes of service that this line want to perform; the first is the mail service and general passenger business, and the next an immigrant line. These lighter ships of two thousand tons will answer for the immigrant business. In this connection let me say to my friend from Vermont that the three thousandton ships that this company propose to put upon the line will carry more passengers, are wider and deeper and broader than the four-thousand ton ships at British measurement, of which the Cunarders are thousand-ton ship by our measurement has a fair sample. The three more surface measurement, carries more tons, has more room than a ship of four thousand will look at the measurements of the two tons British measurement. California laughs with incredulity, but if he The Senator from countries he will find that what I say is correct. I speak from the book.

But now my friend from Vermont is not satisfied with that. He wants to knock these two-thousand-ton ships out of this bill. He is not satisfied with cutting down the term of the contract to ten years, but he wants to make it obligatory on the same company that take and hampered them. I insist upon it that we it for ten years to build a thousand tons more on the two ships, after he has already crippled might as well say once for all that we do not want or will not have a line of American representatives of the nation, that this condisteamers across the Atlantic ocean. Sir, it is a shame to the nation, it is a shame to the have sat quietly by and seen ship after ship tion of things has been tolerated so long. We driven from the ocean until the stars and stripes are a curiosity to-day in the greatest commercial emporium of the world, New York, and there is not a mail that goes from our shores that does not go in foreign bottoms.

hope my honorable friend from Vermont will Sir, I am earnest about this matter, and I not be too tenacious about his amendments. If we pass the bill now we can amend it next able Senator from California, for God's sake year; but I insist upon it, and I ask the honorable Senator from Vermont and the honorlet us get once, and in this year, one American flag floating over an American vessel in which an American heart will feel pride as an American citizen steps on its deck to travel to a foreign country.

Mr. CONNESS rose.

be patient for a moment.
Mr. NYE. My friend from California will

Mr. CONNESS. I hope I do not disturb
the honorable Senator.

Mr. NYE. No; you do not disturb me; but
you look as though you wanted to speak so bad
that it bothers me a little. [Laughter.]

I insist upon it that the original bill ought to
be passed. It is a great and liberal undertak-
ing on the part of these contractors to attempt
to do that. My opinion is that they will find
and that the honorable Senator from Vermont
themselves troubled when they attempt to do
it; but I sincerely hope that this bill will pass,
existence of the contract, will not attempt to
put two thousand tons more upon their vessels
when he has knocked ten years off from the

efforts to aid in the establishment of a line of
I have witnessed for years the failure of
American steamers, and the reason is that
somebody always wants somebody else subsi
dized. If it is a line from Maine that is pro
posed, somebody wants a line from Boston;
if it is a line from Boston some one from New
go on and all find themselves beaten at last
York wants a line from New York; and so we
and the sad, sickening, disgraceful spectacle is
presented to us squarely in the face that e