was perfectly legal; but to no purpose, | effect that a large party of armed French the said RIEL insisting substantially that settlers were assembling at Riviere Sale the Canadian Government had no right to on the road to Pembina, headed by Louis survey the land without the consent of the REIL, with the avowed purpose of turning settlers, and maintaining that their oppo- back the said WM. MCDOUGALL and party sition should be continued. That deponent at all hazards. That deponent laid this had another interview on the above com- information before Governor MACTAVISH, plaint with the said RIEL, in the presence who ordered the immediate calling of a of the late Governor MACTAVISH. That Council. That this Council was held on at this interview the said Governor the 25th October-that deponent was MACTAVISH, although in a very weak state present at this Council that the said of body, took a most active part in endea- Judge BLACK presided as at the previous voring to convince the said RIEL of the Council, and for the same reason—that mischievous and illegal course entered RIEL, the leader of the insurgents, was upon by the said RIEL and his party. present at this meeting, introduced by one That this interview appeared to have no of the members of Council to explain the more effect than the former. That it was position of the insurgents and to hear the then thought advisable by the said opinion of the Council. That after a Governor MACTAVISH, and the other lengthened discussion the said RIEL left magistrates to let the matter rest for the purpose of communicating with for a time in the belief that the insurgents. promising that their anthese people would soon withdraw their swer to the Council would be given in on opposition, the survey being accepted and the 28th. That on the discussion of the approved of throughout the rest of the question as to what action should be said settlement, and so far as deponent taken, it was the opinion of the can remember, this was agreed to by the Council that the well-affected settlers said Colonel DENNIS. That about this would not respond to any call time it was known in the said settlements on the part of the executive to from statements in the Canadian news-assist in bringing in the said Mr. McDovpapers, that the hon. WILLIAM MCDOUGALL had been appointed Lieut. Governor of the Territory, to take office subsequent to the transfer of the territory to Canada. That soon after it was known, through the same sources, that the said WILLIAM MCDOUGALL, with some other gentlemen appointed to offices under him, had left Canada on their way to the said settlement, and should arrive about the end of October. That, in consequence of this information, the said Governor MACTAVISH called a meeting of the Council of Assiniboia, which was held on the 19th October. That deponent being a member of the Council, was present at the said meeting, that the said Governor MACTAVISH being very unwell, and for the most part confined to bed, Judge BLACK presided at the meeting. That an address from the Council to be presented to the said WM. MCDOUGALL on his arrival, was cordially agreed to, and although a full meeting of Council, no member, so far as deponent can remember, expressed any fear about the said WM. MCDOUGALL's entry into the settlement. That on the 22nd October an information was sworn before deponent by a man named WALTER HYMON, to the Mr. D. A. Smith.

GALL and party, members of the Council
stating that they had made inquiries in
their respective districts, and that the
people refused to act either armed or
unarmed, alleging, generally, that the
Canadian Government had been preparing
for a long time to assume the Government of
the country, and should be able to do so
without calling on one portion of the
settlers to take up arms against another.
That the Council having been informed
that a good number of the more influential
French settlers were against the movement
of the insurgents, it was decided that two
members of Council, Messrs. W. DEASE
and ROGER GAULET should visit the camp
at Rivière Salé taking with them as many
French settlers,
of the well affected
unarmed, as they could collect, and there
use every reasonable effort to get the
insurgents to disperse. That the said Mr.
W. DEASE proceeded to act upon this, but
two or three days after, the said Governor
MACTAVISH, having been informed that the
said Mr. W. DEASE's party had gone · up
to Rivière Salé armed, and that from the
excited state of both parties the peace and
safety of the whole settlement was endan-
gered, recalled the authority of Council

!

said insurgents, to procure the return of the said insurgents to their homes, and the restoration of order in the said settlement. That for some time after the entrance of the said insurgents into Fort Garry, provisions were issued to the said insurgents under protest, in the then rea

given to the said Mr. W. DEASE. That a | the opposition to the said Mr. Mcmeeting of the Council of Assiniboia was DOUGALL'S entrance into the country, and held on the 30th October, at which after the occupation of Fort Garry by the deponent was present. That at this meeting a letter from the, said Governor MACTAVISH to the said Mr. MCDOUGALL was read and approved of, conveying the opinion of the said Governor MACTAVISH, and of the Council, that the said Mr. MCDOUGALL Should remain at Pembina, and await the issue of conciliatory nego-sonable expectation that tho endeavors of tiations in the hope of procuring a peaceable dispersion of the malcontents. That on the following day the views reached the settlement that the said Mr. MCDOUGALL and party had arrived at Pembina. That on the 1st November the report was circulated that the assembly at Rivière Salé was dispersing having appointed a party of forty men to proceed to Pembina to confer with the said Mr. McDougall. That on the following day, the 2nd November, the said RIEL entered Fort Garry with a party of 120 armed men, taking forcible possession of the establishment. That at the time these insurgents entered Fort Garry the said Governor MACTAVISH was confined to bed by serious illness. That deponent was then with the said Governor MACTAVISH in his bed room, and that the said insurgents were in possession of the Fort before their presence was known either to the said Governor MACTAVISH or to deponent. That deponent had in all about fifteen men, officers and servants in Fort Garry, engaged at the time in their usual avocations. That deponent received no information from any quarter of the intention of the said insurgents to enter Fort Garry. That deponent, although meeting daily with the best informed settlers, and the movements of the said insurgents being the constant subject of discussion, does not remember any statement, even by surmise, that the said insurgents would enter Fort Garry. That deponent has good authority for believing that the movement on Fort Garry was decided upon only a short time before the said insurgents started from Rivière Salé. That the said Governor MACTAVISH, both officially and personally, had great influence amongst the French settlers. That it is within deponent's knowledge that the said Governor MACTAVISH made use of this influence to the utmost of his ability to disperse the assembly at Rivière Salé, and to remove Mr. D. A. Smith.

the said Governor MACTAVISH to procure the dispersion of the said insurgents would prove successful. That as soon as it was ascertained that these endeavors were frustrated, all provisions were refused to the said insurgents. That therefore the provision stores were broken open and all the provisions and other goods stored therein seized by the said insurgents. That deponent has seen an affidavit said to have been made by a man named JOHN FLETT, of the parish of Kildonan. That in the said affidavit it is stated by the said JOHN FLETT 'that during the fall of 1869 he was working in the vicinity of Fort Garry and slept occasionally at the house of his sister in same Fort, that on one occasion, just before the gathering of rebels at Stinking River to resist the entrance of the Hon. WILLIAM MCDOUGALL into the territory, in going out in the dusk of the evening he saw LOUIS RIEL and Chief Factor COWAN enter Fort Garry by the south gate, and, not wishing to be seen, he, the said JOHN FLETT, did enter the porch leading to the Hudson's Bay Company's store. That while in said porch the said RIEL and the said COWAN advanced and stopped about five yards from where he was. That he did distinctly hear this conversation which took place between the said COWAN and RIEL. That it appeared from the remarks he heard as the said COWAN and RIEL approached that said COWAN urged the said RIEL to go on with the proposed stopping of the Hon. WILLIAM MCDOUGALL at Stinking River. That said RIEL replied, 'What good will it do me? What will I get for it? Said CowAN answered that Governor MACTAVISH would do as he had promised, and said COWAN also assured him, the said RIEL, that he would get what he had been promised. That said COWAN and RIEL then walked in the direction of said COWAN's residence. That said JOHN FLETT verily believes from the whole con.

tions he could with the two policemen under his charge; said MULLIGAN says that before the rebels assembled

at

versation that said Cowan, who was then in charge of Fort Garry, was inciting and encouraging the said RIEL by promises of payment to take active steps for the keep-Stinking River he gave due notice to said ing out of the said Governor McDOUGALL, Justice COWAN, of their intention to do so, which said RIEL seemed to hesitate about and that the said Justice COWAN seemed doing. That said JOHN FLETT did on to take no notice of it. That repeatedly several occasions see the said COWAN and afterwards, up to the time of the Fort RIEL in close conversation but could not being occupied by RIEL and his men, the hear what was said.' Deponent declares said MULLIGAN did urge upon the said that the above statement made in the CoWAN the danger in which the Fort said affidavit by the said JOHN FLETT is stood, and a short time before did inform untrue and without any foundation, in the said COWAN that the rebels meditated fact that before the interview on the doing so immediately, and again urged the above mentioned complaint of Colonel said COWAN to call upon the said 300 DENNIS, deponent met the said RIEL only special constables, but was in all cases. once. That this meeting was in the sum- distinctly refused. That he repeatedly mer or fall of 1868, that the said RIEL warned Doctor COWAN of the rising and of was then making enquiries in reference to the intention of the rebels to overthrow a debt due by his deceased father to the the Government and take Fort Garry, but Hudson's Bay Company. That from the that on all occasions he was rebuffed, and first meeting with the said RIEL on the all his offers of services on behalf of himabove mentioned complaint of Colonel self and in the name of the loyal people DENNIS in the presence of Mr. R. GOULET, who were willing to support the police deponent had no communication with authority, and anxious to keep down the the said RIEL, but in the presence of third rebellion were distinctly refused. Deponparties, and that deponent never spoke to ent declares that the above statements the said RIEL but in the strongest terms made in the affidavit of the said JAMES of opposition to the course upon which MULLIGAN are false. That deponent the said RIEL and his followers had never received any information from the entered. That deponent has seen another said JAMES MULLIGAN in reference to the affidavit said to have been made by movements of the said insurgents. That Sergeant JAMES MULLIGAN, a pensioner of deponent never was urged by the said HER MAJESTY's 17th Foot, and lately and JAMES MULLIGAN to call out the 300 for some time Chief of the Police Force in special constables. That deponent never the Town of Winnipeg,, understood by heard of any offer of service made to the deponent to mean JAMES MULLIGAN, executive from any quarter, excepting the pensioner, and for some time one of the offer made by Sergeant-Major POWER three constables stationed in the Town some time after Fort Garry was in of Winnipeg. That the said affidavit con- possession of the said insurgents. tains the following statements: (Signed,) WILLIAM COWAN. hearing that the buildings of DR. SCHULTZ Sworn before me this first day of Sepwere threatened with a consequent danger tember, 1871. of fire extending to the town, said JAMES MULLIGAN, then Chief of Police, proceeded at once to Fort Garry, and spoke to Chief Factor Dr. CowAN, who was a Justice of the Peace, and in charge of Fort Garry, told him what he, the said MULLIGAN, had heard, said MULLIGAN urged said CowAN to take steps to prevent such an outrage, Mr. D. A. SMITH-This is the same and asked for instructions how to proceed. Dr. COWAN that was in charge of the Fort, COWAN answered, what can we do? Said and he made an affidavit to the effect that MULLIGAN replied that it would be that statement is utterly untrue, and he advisable to call out the 300 special con- also, I believe, gave the same testimony stables who had been engaged; said before the North-West Committee. COWAN refused to do so, and said have also here a deposition of Governor MULLIGAN returned to take what precau- MACTAVISH and Judge BLACK to the same Mr. D. A. Smith.

That

(Signed,) HUNTER FINLAY, J. P., Glasgow, Scotland."

Mr. SCHULTZ-Is that the Dr. CoWAN who a person named JOHN FLETT swears was in conference with RIEL with respect to the delivering up to RIEL of Fort Garry?

I

effect, in which they declare that there is no truth in the allegation made by MULLIGAN, and I have again to express my great regret at having been under the necessity of bringing up these matters before the House; but I felt that these accusations against the Hudson Bay Company were made not because those who got them up believed them, but for the purpose of making this country believe what they themselves did not credit.

Mr. SCHULTZ-It is said that the wicked flee when no man pursueth. We have been occupied for the last fifty-five minutes in listening to the rebuttal or attempt of rebuttal of a charge which has not been made in this House, nor in any way that calls for contradiction by the hon. gentleman. However, I am very glad that the explanation has been made, because it will serve to show to any one who listened attentively to it that there is no relevancy whatever in any of the documents which he has lead to the charge said to be made by W. B. O'DONOGHUE, saving the first one read by the hon. gentleman. It would be noticed that that document was written by himself to the Government of the day after his re

turn

to Manitoba in 1870. He simply quotes himself in the House to contradict the assertion said to have been made by Mr. O'DONOGHUE. I do not think the explanation was called for in the first place, and if it were called for I do not see that the hon. gentleman has shown us anything outside of his own statement to controvert the statements made by W. B. O'DONOGHUE. We have simply the statement of Mr. O'DONOGHUE on one side and of the hon.

gentleman on the other. I am not going to express any opinion as to which of these gentlemen is correct. I willing concede to the hon. gentleman what he states in regard to the difficulties connected with his mission in 1870. I know that his mission was one which called for at least an ordinary degree of courage and competency, and I know also that it was particularly unfortunate that the hon. gentleman should have allowed himself to be chosen for a mission of that sort, the duties which he was so incompetent to perform. He must know as well as I do that on two occasions which I will presently specify opportunities offered to him

Mr. D. A. Smith

of at once breaking the power of the Provisional Government.

Mr. SPEAKER-I must call the hon. gentleman to order. He is making an attack upon the hon. member for Selkirk which is against the rule. If the hon. gentleman has any explanation to offer with regard to himself the House I am sure will indulge him, but he has certainly no right to attack the hon. member for Selkirk.

Mr. SCHULTZ-I do not wish to make an attack upon the hon. gentleman. It will be in the recollection of the House that the hon. gentleman adverted to me several times and I was simply going on to make an explanation of my own conduct on that occasion. I was proceeding to say that I believed there were two occasions offered to the hon. gentleman on which, had he acted promptly, he might have at once ended the rule of the Provisional Government. The first of these occasions was when the hon. gentleman arrived at Fort Garry, and when he found there was a considerable dissatisfaction among the more intelligent of RIEL'S followers who felt that they had gone a little too far in the matter and they were beginning to fear the possible consequences of their action. There was then a favorable opportunity at the important meeting called by the hon. member for Selkirk, at Fort Garry. At that meeting nearly 500 persons assembled, most of them, I believe, armed. At that meeting when the QUEEN'S letter was read, and also the documents with which the hon. gentleman was entrusted, so strong did the feeling become that there was a general wish expressed that the hon. gentleman would allow them to put a summary stop to the insurection then going on. They said "say the word and we will raise the British flag where it has been torn down, and release the prisoners." Had this opportunity been acted upon, the hon. gentleman might have been able to make a different report from that which he has read to us to-night. The opportunity was not acted upon. It is not for me to say what reason the hon. gentleman had for not acting upon it. I am not disposed to believe with Mr. O'DONOGHUE that at that particular juncture the hon. gentleman had anything to do in connection with the Provisional Government. I am more disposed to attribute his conduct to an equal mix

*

ture of cowardice and incompetency.
The other occasion to which I shall make
reference was some time after that. It
was when THOMAS SCOTT and a number of
others had come from Portage la Prairie
to join the force of which I was a member
in the lower part of the settlement. It
was an occasion when between five and
six hundred armed men assembled, and
when the demonstration made by them
had induced Mr. RIEL to see the necessity
of releasing the rest of the prisoners kept
by him.
On that occasion there was a
disposition on the part of that force to go
on at once and assert the authority of the
Canadian Government, and drive out Mr. |
RIEL and raise the British flag. It was
due to the efforts of the hon. member for
Selkirk, aided I am sorry to say by a por-
tion of the clergy of Red River, that that
force was induced not to make the contem-
plated attack upon Fort Garry, on the
plea that having forced Mr. RIEL to
release the prisoners, it was not necessary
to do anything further. These men pro-
posed to take possession of the Lower Fort
Garry and raise the British flag there.
Why was that plan, so easy of accomplish-
ment, not carried out? I will tell you
why. It was because the hon. gentleman,
aided by the Archdeacon to whom he has
referred, came down to the place where
the people had assembled for the purpose
of taking the preliminary steps in the
direction of that attack, and begged them
not to take that step, and strongly ad-
vised them not only to submit to the
Provisional Government, but to send
delegates to the Convention which elected
Mr. LOUIS RIEL as President. If that
was the part for a competent and coura-
geous delegate from Canada to play, then
I have nothing more to say. I do not
wish to say too much on this matter; I
may feel too warmly upon it. I will merely
add that it would have been better had
the hon. gentleman tried in some way to
repudiate directly the accusations said to
have been made by W. B. O'DONOGHUE, be-
sides simply giving his own statement to
the House.

Mr. D. A. SMITH-The hon. member for Lisgar has been pleased to speak of me as having acted in a cowardly manner, and he has given his version of a meeting that took place at Upper Fort Garry. In doing so I am sorry to say that he has entirely mis-stated what occurred at that

Mr. Schultz.

time. He has said that at that meeting
there were some five hundred men who
were willing and prepared to raise the
British flag. The facts of the case are
really these :-When about to commence
the proceedings of that meeting I urged
the Chairman and those on the platform
to raise the British flag. They said "no,
it is impossible for us to do so now but we
shall do so afterwards." They did not
raise the British flag then and the oppor-
tunity did not occur again. At that first
meeting two loyal men were sent into the
adjoining building for some papers and
when they returned they said that build-
ing was full of armed men and that they
were prepared for any emergency or for
any attack that might be made. There
was not one man at that meeting at upper
Fort Garry that proposed to raise the
British flag at that time except as I have
already stated, and I feel confident that
had it been attempted it would have
resulted not only in bloodshed but in the
loss of life and would have involved the
whole settlement in civil war. The hon.
gentleman says that on another occasion I
went down to the lower part of the settle-
ment with Archdeacon McLEAN and
advised those who were assembled
there to disperse. Such is not the
case. At that second meeting composed
principally of English people with some
English half-breeds from the lower settle-
ment, the hon. member for Lisgar, I
believe, was one of the principal leaders,
and we could never find out why the hon.
gentleman really did not come to Fort
Garry on that occasion, except on the sup-
position that he thought it more prudent
and safer to go back. Being at the time
strictly guarded within Fort Garry, I was
not then in a position to give any advice.

Mr. SCHULTZ-I will explain at once why the force of which I was an humble member-not the leader-did not go to Fort Garry. That force took possession of a church, school house and manse and encamped for the night. At daylight the next morning they sent a messenger to Mr. RIEL telling him that if he did not release all the prisoners in his charge he would at once be attacked. Within an hour the prisoners were released, and the question then came up as to whether to go on and attack Fort Garry or not. While a large number were willing after having accomplished the principal object for