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which he would cast his vote. Referring
to the case cited by the member for St.
John, in which the Senate had defeated a
Bill sent up by the Lower House, namely,
the Tuckersmith Bill, he thought the hon.
gentleman had selected a most unfortun-
ate illustration, because, if there was
any subject upon which the Commons
might be supposed to have full control it
was one which related to its own consti-
tution.

of their descent. A part of that House it,
is true were nominated by the Crown,
namely, the spiritual peers, but as these
held their seats by virtue of their hold-
ing certain ecclesiastical positions, it might
be fairly said that no portion of the
House of Lords were nominated directly
to their legislative positions by the
Crown. Then the members of this body
received a special, social and educational
training for their bright positions, as they
knew from their earliest youth that they Mr. MACDOUGALL (East Elgin),
would in time be called to take their seats approved of having a Second Chamber,
in the House of Lords. The same could but thought that some better mode than
not be said of our Senators. They went the present should be devised for consti-
through the same political and party train- tuting it. His idea of the functions of the
ing as did members of the Commons, and Senate were those of a revising body, as a
that training was not of a kind to make sort of appellant body, where questions
them independent, either of the government could be decided in a judicial spirit. Then
of the day or of the gusts of popular feel with reference to those who should be
ing. In fact, the appointments to the called on to perform those functions,
Senate were exactly of the same class as they should be men of large experience
the appointments to any other salaried and great learning, and men who were
position in the gift of the Government. familiar with the principles of constitu-
They were rewards of party zeal, or of tional Government. The next question
the influence which the persons receiving was how were these men to be selected. He
the appointments may have exercised or proceeded to discuss the different modes
will be able to exercise on behalf of the suggested, namely, the nominative system,
Government of the day, and the same the elective system, and the system of
kind of evils which were connected election by the Local Legislatures, and
with the system of making appointments pointed out the advantages of the latter
to the civil service for political con- system. We had a right to ask the
siderations existed with reference to Imperial Parliament to revise our Consti-
appointments to the Senate, though in a tution, the Imperial Parliament being the
much greater degree, as the position was highest authority to which we could
higher and the duties more important. If appeal. There was nothing in the propo-
he might be allowed to give his own sition of the hon. member for Bothwell
opinion of what position the Senate should which was contrary to responsible govern-
fill under the Federal system, it would be ment, às understood under the principles
that that body should not only be a check on of the British Constitution. The allega-
hasty legislation, but should be a mediator tion that any change made in the
between the various Provinces and between Constitution was revolutionary fell
the provinces and the federal power, In to the
the ground,
ground, because he found
order that it might be a check upon hasty that such changes were often made in
legislation, it might be sufficient if its England. Although the framers of our
members were elected for a longer term constitution had determined the Senate
than the members of the Commons; but would be nominated by the Crown, it
in order that it should be in a position to afforded no reason why, if further exper-
act as mediator between the Provinces, it ience and knowledge obtained since that
should be the representatives of the differ- time satisfied us that a change was required,
ent Provinces and not of constituencies. that change should be made. It would be
Henators nominated by the Government of a very dangerous principle to adopt in
the day were not necessarily representa- legislation, if as soon as an Act of Parlia-
tives of their Provinces, but might, on the ment was passed adopting a certain prin-
contrary, be entirely opposed to the pre-ciple, no change could be made, however
yailing sentiment in their Provinces. On† much it was required. He believed there
the whole, he spproved of the plan sug was a growing feeling prevailing in the
gested by the mover of the resolution for country that a change was necessary in the

Mr. Casey.

1

organization of the Senate; the question was one which pressed itself on the attention of the House.

Mr. WALLACE (South Norfolk) said that some of the hon. members who had taken part in the debate had forgotten that we are part of a monarchy and have a Sovereign. It was calmly proposed by the resolution on the table to change the mode of constituting a body which was equal to this House, a power which the House did not possess. He had always believed that Senatorships were the rewards of merit, similar to the creation of Peerages in England. Peers were created for services rendered in the field or in Parliament. Sir HUGH SMITH and General NAPIER having been raised to the Upper House for military services, while HER MAJESTY offered a peerage to M. DISRAELI for his political services. Take away from the Crown the right to appoint to the Senate, and what means remained by which the Sovereign could recompense a Canadian subject for his service to his country. Titles were not in accordance with the genius or spirit of this people, and this right taken away nothing was left. It was incorrect to say that the representation of this country was based on population. It was based on property or income. There were no There were no two constituences having a population alike, and therefore that could not be the basis of representation. It was also a mistake to speak of the sovereignity of the Provinces of this Dominion. There was no such thing; all the powers the Provinces possessed were delegated to them. They legislated within limits fixed by the Imperial Parliament. The Senate had been spoken of as a safe-guard against the encroachments of the larger Provinces on the smaller. He did not understand how such encroachment was possible. burden could be imposed on one that did not fall on the other. The only way this House could impose on them was by not giving them a proper share of the public expenditure, but that was a matter over which the Senate had no control. It would be a difficult matter to prevent conflicts from arising between the two Houses, but the House of Commons could at any time stop the supplies which they controlled. If the Senate were made elective, did any one suppose that the seventy or eighty members elected to that body would be better representatives of

4

Mr. Macdougall.

U

No

the people than the 206 members of this House? Or did any one suppose that the 206 members of the House of Commons would submit to be controlled by the 80 Senators if the latter were elected by the people? He looked upon it that the Senators were not to represent public opinion, but were to exercise judicial powers. He held that Senators who held their position for life were more independent of the popular will than the Commons, and, therefore, more likely to give a calm and unbiassed judgment on questions affecting the public mind. Therefore, he thought it better that they should be nominated as, they were now, and that they should be elected as representatives of the people. There would be little difference between elections by the Local Legislatures and elections by the people directly. The majority supporting the Government of the day would elect their candidates. He regarded this resolution as a sort of want-of-confidence motion. It implied a doubt as to whether the Ministry would do justice. It had been asserted that the Senate was a useless body in legislation. He denied that. He held that many members of the Senate would be ornaments to this House or any other legislative body. There were gentlemen there who had taken a prominent part in public affairs for years, and who had breathed political being into many members of this House who had been disparaging that honorable body. He did not think it was wise in this House to depreciate the other branch of the Legislature. But, it was said, they had retarded legislation. Well, this House was responsible for that, in losing time in long debates in the early part of the session and rushing Bills through without giving them proper consideration. Would that be an argument for doing away with this House? If the Upper Chamber had not given as much attention to these measures as they ought to have done, it was the fault of this House. But hon. members should remember that measures were debated in this House before they were sent to the Senate, and they did not, therefore, require to be so thoroughly discussed in the Upper Chamber. was opposed to the resolution, because he felt, if this right of appointing to the Senate were taken away from the Crown, there was but one link remaining connect-ing this colony with the Sovereign, and

He

that was the appointment of the GOVERNOR | ing no lords, there was no necessity for a GENERAL. For thse reasons he would vote against the resolution.

If we

House of Lords, It was a well known
principle that when the reason for a law
ceased to exist, the law itself should also
cease to exist. In this country there was
no necessity for a second body, except to:
put a check on hasty legislation.
were to have a second Chamber, which he
did not think the country required, let us
have it established on more common
sense principles
than it was based on
to-day. It should represent the senti-
ments and ideas of to-day. We did not
get such representation in the present
way of constituting the Senate.
believed the present Senate was
body than it was likely to be 25 years
hence under the present system, Senators
being appointed for life. When the hon.
member for Bothwell brought in his Bill
he would be happy to give it his humble
support.

He an abler

Mr. APPLEBY said this proposition to change the Constitution should be considered with great care, and he would hesitate very much before giving his assent to it unless an agreement were made with the several Provinces and the Imperial Parliament for such a change as would not shock the political feeling of the Dominion at large. A question like this should be approached with very great delicacy, and he presumed the hon. member for Bothwell merely intended to have a full discussion on his resolution in order to prepare the country for a plan to be submitted at a future day. He had been told that some members of the Senate were very much offended at some of the remarks made last year during the discussion on this question. He regretted this, and believed that this matter could be Mr. BLAIN did not agree with the discussed in a gentlemanly manner so as remarks made towards the members of not to give offence to any one. If there the Senate at present in that body. He was weight in the arguments used in believed the Senate, as a whole, was perfavor of this resolution, he held that there haps the ablest body of men, considering was patriotism enough in the other House its numbers, that we had in this country. to vote themselves out of existence. It There were some of them on whom the was assumed that our Constitution was hand of time was now pressing, but there modelled after the Constitution of Great were very many of them very able and Britain. Under that Constitution the talented men, who had occupied the first people of Great Britain had prospered, and positions in this country, and he, for one, grown, reaped as much happiness and disapproved of remarks made by some attained as high a standard of civilization hon. gentlemen as affecting members of as any other nation, but it did not follow that House. Nevertheless, he felt it his that this was precisely the form of Gov- duty to say that he believed the people of ernment which was suited to this country. this country were not satisfied with the The Constitution of Great Britain grew manner in which that House was at preup out of conditions and circumstances of sent constituted. They desired a change, the people which did not exist here at the and the only matter to be discussed was present day. In the Mother Country how that change was to be brought about. there were the House of Commons and the The only way was to petition the Imperial House of Lords, the former representing Government to amend the Constitution, the great mass of the people, the latter and we could point out the manner in the nobility and the great landholding which we believed it should be done. He interests of the country. There was, disapproved of the election of Senators by therefore, a necessity for two Legislative the Local Legislatures. They all knew bodies. In this country there was no perfectly well the difficulty the people of such state of affairs. We had no nobles, the United States had through this sysearls, lords, or dukes. It was true tem. When our own Constitution was we had a few knights, but though framed that difficulty was provided against they were remarkable men, there by giving this House control in conflicts no particular necessity that they arising between the Federal and Local Legisshould be represented, especially as they latures. He did not feel disposed to interwere past middle age, and, the feeling of fere with that. He believed there should the country being against titles, there be a central power, and if we were to would be few, if any, more created. Hav-build up a great nation here, ashe believed

was

Mr. Wallace.

we were some day, that central power elect them, would therefore be on an should be held here. • It was proposed entirely different basis, and require a different system. If he did not very

greatly mistake the meaning of the resolution, he could not vote for it in its presentform.

The House then divided, when the reso lution was carried on the following divi sion :

that the separate provinces should declare how the Senators should be elected. In other words, there would be a power thrown into the hands of the Local Legislatures which would be equal to the power enjoyed by this House. That is, they would constitute one-half of the legislative body of this Parliament. We stood in an entirely different position from the people of the United States. New York State, Archibald, with four millions of people, elected only Borron, two Senators; Quebec, with one-fourth of Barthe, that population, elected 24. There would Béchard, Bernier, be no analogy whatever between the manBlake, ner in which Senators were elected in the Bourassa, United States and the practical working Bowman, out of the system proposed by the present Campbell, resolution. Then, again, it did not appear Cartwright, Carmichael, on the face of the resolution whether it was Casey, intended there should be a uniform rule in Cheval, the various Provinces. Ontario might Church, adopt the plan of allowing the people to Cockburn, elect the Senator, while Quebec might Cushing, Coupal, elect them in her Local Legislature, and Dawson, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia might DeCosmos; adopt different rules. Now, if we were to Delorme, De St. Georges, make any alteration at all, we should settle Dymond, upon one which would be applicable to the Fleming, Dominion. What was proposed here was Flynn. that this matter should go to the respective Fournier, Galbraith, Provinces to be dealt with by them in Gibson, whatever manner they might think fit. He.Gillies, did not approve of that. There were | Gordon, different modes, of course, by which the Hagar, Senate might be constituted. If we wanted to carry out the analogy of the Imperial House of Lords, the Senate should be constituted so as to represent property in this country. There must be a different franchise from that under which members of this House were elected. Another mode ¦ Laird, which might well be tested here would be to give, for instance in Ontario where twenty-four Senators are elected, each clector twenty-four votes, and allow him to poll them for whomsoever he pleased. That would be the minority system, and would be entirely different from the franchise for this House. But in any event the Senate should not be constituted in the same way as this House. With the present representation Ontario would have three Senators for eleven members of the Lower House, Quebec three to eight, and Nova Scotia five to nine. The territorial limits of the constituencies that would

Mr. Blain.

Holton,
Horton,
Huntington,
Irving,
Jette,
Jodoin,
Killam,
Laflamme,

Appleby,
Aylmer,
Baby,

Bertram,
Biggar,
Blain,
Borden,
Bowell,
Brouse,

YEAS:
Messieurs

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Brown,
Bunster,
Burpee (St. John),
Burpee (Sunbury),
Cameron (Cardwell),
Caron,
Casgrain,

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The House then went into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Young in the chair.

Mr. MILLS said the course he intended to pursue was the same as he had taken last year under similar circumstances. The House had committed itself to the principle that a change was desirable in the Constitution of the Senate there could be no doubt about that proposition. The House had affirmed that the Constitution of the Senate was inconsistent with the principle of our Federal Government, and some change should be made which would give to each Province the appointment of its Senators. It was now for the Committee to decide what shape could be given to that proposition. He submitted last year for their legislation a series of resolutions for the purpose of giving effect to the principle which had just been affirmed. He intended to pursue the same course on the present occasion. He did not desire to proceed more rapidly than public opinion indicated that Parliament should proceed, and he had no intention of pressing the question to the extent that the Government should be bound to take it up in the meantime. It was highly important in all constitutional questions that we should proceed with deliberation, and that the people, whose representatives the members of the House were, should have the opportunity of discussing the various changes proposed, and of pronouncing upon them. He proposed to submit to the House a general scheme by which our Constitution could be amended, a scheme which provided that the number of Senators appointed on the existing principle should be reduced in proportion as

Mr. Blain.

the present members died, so that there might be no interference with vested rights. In order that the House should have the fullest opportunity of considering his proposal, he thought that in the meantime, the set of resolutions which he had framed should be printed; and he therefore moved that the committee rise and report progress and ask for leave to sit again.

Hon. Mr. CAUCHON admitted that the hon. member for Bothwell had gained a very great victory, but suggested that as there were at least seventy members absent, the vote was not fairly representative of the opinions of the majority of the House. The majority was only three. When the House was so nearly divided, he thought the hon. gentleman should not persist in pressing his resolution before the committee, but should give an opportunity for public opinion to mature.

Hon. J. H. CAMERON (Cardwell) contended that as the House had affirmed the principle of a change in the Constitution by a majority of members and a majority of the Government having voted in favor of it, the further prosecution of the scheme should be left in the hands of the executive. If the vote just given could be fairly supposed to reflect the opinions of the country and if the proposed change were as admirable as the hon. member who moved it appeared to think, it was the duty of the Government to direct the further movements necessary to its being placed upon the statute book. He hoped at least the House would have an opportunity of seeing the resolutions printed. He felt satisfied that the judgment of the whole House had not as yet been pronounced upon the matter, and if it came up again during the session there was eertain to be a further struggle. He could not help feeling that it was strange this should occur twenty-one years after the principle which it affirmed had been originally adopted, and upon that occasion he had expressed the opinion that if he lived to the ordinary term of life he had no doubt that he would see a measure carried making the Legislative Council nominative. It was strange that he had lived to see the principle of a nominative Senate voted down again; it showed how capricious was public opinion, and what curious changes took place. He would assure his

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