hon. friend, however, that he had advanced | class, and if the members of the two but a very short distance on the road along Chambers are to be chosen by the same which he was travelling. It was very electors, it is very clear that it would be kind in the hon. member for Bothwell to extremely difficult for both to maintain permit the Senators to live out their little their individuality, possessing similar day; but if he had put the case more powers and privileges, and avoid collision. strongly, the Senators would have been It is evident that two Chambers which very likely to object to it. When we have originated in precisely the same way remember how many of those Senators will claim to exercise the same rights and had played an important part in the poli- privileges, and to discharge the same functical affairs of the past, how many of tions; but were the Upper Chamber nomithem had been elected members of the native instead of elective, the jurisdiction Legislature for their Provinces and the of that Chamber would be, of course, old Province of Canada, it was hardly correspondingly changed, and the chances likely that their connection with public of collision made more remote." On one affairs would be terminated so quickly or two occasions since two occasions since then he had and easily as the hon. member expressed the opinion that, the view he appeared to anticipate. He compli- then took had not turned out as he mented the hon. member for Bothwell on the manner in which he had submitted the question to the House in calm temper and gentlemanly language. In reaching the point at which the hon. gentleman had arrived, he had undoubtedly secured a great victory. The Committee should rise and report progress, and the duty of placing the position before the country and obtaining public opinion thereon would devolve upon

the hon. member for Bothwell.

expected. He did not mean at all to reflect upon any member of the Upper House, or to express any opinion upon the wisdom of the course they had taken, but he wished merely to express the opinion that in the light of our experience he did not believe that the power of nominating Senators should remain in the hands of the Government of the day. He was committed to no particular scheme; he was merely committed to the principle Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE, in reply to that it was desirable that there should be the remarks of the hon. member for Card- a change in the mode of constituting the well, in reference to the position of the Senate, and it would be the duty of the Government, stated that the Government, Government to consider, in the first place, as a Government, had taken no position whether public opinion throughout the on this vote. He had not discussed the country was in such an advanced state as matter before the vote was taken for the to justify the Government in proposing a reason that he thought it most desirable change to the Legislature, and when they that an independent opinion of the House were satisfied of that it would be their should be expressed in such a way that duty to use that public opinion in order there could be no party pressure of any to procure such a change as would fairly kind placed upon any member, and he did meet the views of the country. Although so the more readily because he had always the majority for the resolution to-night admitted that this was a matter for specu- was very small yet he was inclined to lative opinion. When the subject was think it would have been larger rather discussed in the old Parliament of Canada than smaller if the House had been full. in 1865 he had stated:-"There is evi- He had merely to say in reply to his hon. dently room here for great latitude of friend from Cardwell that he might depend opinion as to the Constitution of the npon it the Government would not shirk Upper Chamber, and I do not think we their full responsibility in this matter whencan be fairly charged with retrogression ever they thought the proper time for because we choose to make the members action had arrived. At present he quite of the Upper House nominative instead of approved of the course which his hon. elective.” He was discussing at that time, friend from Bothwell proposed to take, the Constitution of the various Second viz., having carried his motion and subChambers in different parts of the worldmitted his plan to the House, to proceed and pointing out the mode in which they no further at present. were respectively constituted, and he stated Our people comprise but one Hon. J. II. Cameron.

Hon. Mr. BLAKE observed that after the announcement of the First Minister

and the observations of the member for Cardwell the way was clear for the adoption of the course indicated by those gentlemen. In his opinion it would be well for the member for Bothwell to submit the details of his proposed plan to the House and the country, and then allow the matter to stand for further consideration. He fully agreed with the remarks that had been made in reference to the wisdom of proceeding slowly in matters involving constitutional changes, and, therefore, he approved of allowing the matter to stand over this session.

before the House was an attack upon the Senate. It had been stated on high authority that responsible government was on its trial throughout the empire, and the Senate, theoretically, might well be upon its trial without Senators being attacked. They did not require the compliments of the hon. member for Northumberland, as they were respected in their high position by all the members of this House. All that was done to-night was to record the opinion which had been recorded in old Canada over and over again that the nominative principle of constituting the Senate was not the true principle. The Senate was a very distinguished body, but if there was an element of weakness in the Constitution it was not fair to assume that the people's representatives who ventured to discuss it were treating disrespectfully the members of the Sen

ate.

Hon, Mr. MITCHELL said that it was with great surprise and regret that he found the Government had allowed a matter involving so important a change in the constitution of our country to go to a division without a single word from them in reference to their own position. He held that it was the duty of the Government to lead the House on a matter of so great importance. He believed that upon Mr. DYMOND said he did not rise to more mature consideration the decision of continue the discussion, but merely to say the House would not be sustained, and he a few words in regard to an allusion therefore approved of the suggestion that that had been made to him in the early the resolution be laid upon the table for part of the debate by the hon. member for future consideration. No case had been West Toronto, who had unintentionally made out against the present mode of con- placed an opinion in his (Mr. DYMOND'S) stituting the Senate, and he sincerely mouth which he had not expressed. It hoped that the Government would pause was quite true that when this subject before they took any action in this matter. came up for discussion a year ago he had Perhaps the time might come when the in a few hurried remarks alluded in someConstitution of the Senate might be required what strong language of condemnation to to be changed, but that would not be the system of an Upper Chamber, and in while we occupied our present position in still stronger language to the experience relation to the British Empire. But there we had of an Upper Chamber since Conwas no necessity for a change now. There federation. He did not, however, express had been no agitation in the country for it, the opinion then that the Upper Chamber and there had been no dead-lock between should be abolished. He did not know the two Houses which might supply a to what his argument pointed, but he was reason for such a change. He deeply re- careful to avoid coming to that conclusion. gretted the vote which had been passed, At the same time he would state frankly as it would create an impression that our that theoretically he disbelieved in the Constitution at this early period needed to be necessity for a second Chamber. He would changed, and thereby would cast a reflec- | be glad to see the second Chamber abolishtion upon those who framed it. He re-ed, and he did not believe that the coungretted also that harsh expressions had try would suffer if that were done. He been used in reference to the present was equally certain, however, on the other Senate in the course of the debate. From hand, that neither the public opinion of his own personal knowledge, he could the whole Dominion nor the feeling of bear testimony to the ability, the inde-security in the several Provinces, especially pendence and the sincerity with which in the smaller Provinces, would be conthe members of that body fulfilled their sulted by any act of that kind; and he important fainotions. had therefore, desiring to influence prac Hon. Mr. HUNTINGTON said it was tical rather than theoretical législation, a'mistake to suppose that the resolution | recorded his vote for the resolution.

Hon. Mr. Blake.

Hon. Mr. MITCHELL observed that I he had spoken of the Senate as he had found it, not because he thought they needed any defence, but in answer to the very harsh and severe expressions which had been used towards that body by the member for Bothwell and others.

Mr. MILLS said he had been accused of using harsh language towards members of the Senate. He certainly thought the Senate was defective in regard to its present constitution, but he had not brought any charge against any of its members, though he had used some pretty strong language with reference to the manner in which the hon. member for Northumberland and his colleagues had made certain appointments to that body. After a few remarks from Hon. Mr. MITCHELL and Mr. PLUMB, the Committee rose and reported progress, and

On motion of Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE the House adjourned at 11.10.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Tuesday, March 2nd, 1875,

The SPEAKER took the chair at three P. M.

BILLS INTRODUCED.

The following Bills were introduced and read a first time:

Mr. COCKBURN-To consolidate the enactments relating to the Northern Railway Company of Canada, and to provide for the consolidation of the loan capital of the company. In answer to the Premier he explained that this Bill was simply to re-arrange the capital and it was entirely independent of the Bill prepared partly, at the instance of the Government.

Mr. JONES (Halifax)-To incorporate the Anglo-French Steamship Company. Mr, JETTE—To incorporate the Canadian Land Investment Guarantee Com

pany.

SCOTT, il est même actuellement sous les verrous, et si, ainsi que le dit M. le Ministre de la Justice, on ne doit pas demander que Lord Carnarvon dit ne vouloir accorder c'est-à-dire une amnistie complète; s'il faut que les inculpés subissent une peine semblable à celle imposée à M. LÉPINE, il est inutile de voter les résolutions du gouMr. JETTE-To incorporate the Metrovernement. D'un autre côté si le gouver-politan Insurance Company. nement espère par ses résolutions, faire revenir les autorités impériales sur leur décision relativement à M. NAULT et aux autres inculpės, nous avons tout lieu de croire qu'il en ferait autant pour MM. RIEL et LÉPINE si nous le lui demandions.”

M. DESJARDÏNS. — Page 30, 12th February in the 8th line, in lieu of the words, “que nous avons prise," insert the following "que la Province de Quebec a prise."

Hon. Mr. Mitchell.

Mr. JETTE-To further amend the Acts 14 and 15 Victoria, Ch. 36, incorporating the Canada Guarantee Company.

Mr. DESJARDINS-To incorporate the National Insurance Company.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE IN NORTH-
WEST.

Hon. Mr. FOURNIER moved for leave to introluce a Bill to amend the Act respecting the administration of Jus

1. That it is expedient to provide that the salaries of the County Court Judges of the Province of Nova Scotia shall be as follows, namely:

tice and the establishment of the Police, was about the same and about the same Force in the North-West Territories. He amount of business came before each stated that the object of this Bill was to Court. He therefore proposed the followamend only two clauses, 26 and 25 of the ing resolution: existing law. These two clauses were reenacted almost entirely with the addition of some provisions respecting desertions, which were not made an offence in the present Act. and there was no provision for the punishment of deserters. The present Bill made desertion an offence punishable by fine. Under the present law the Commissioner alone had the power of punishing offences. By the present Bill it was proposed to extend that Bill to the Assistant Commissioner and other officers in command, so that any commanding officer in an isolated position would have the same power as the Commissioner in relation to the offences mentioned in the Act. The second clause of this Bill, amending Section 25 of the present act, provided that any deserter found in any of the Provinces might be sued, fined and imprisoned for his offence.

Bill read a first time.

SALARIES OF JUDGES.

Hon. Mr. FOURNIER moved the House into Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions on the subject of the salaries of the County Court Judges of the Province of Nova Scotia; also to consider certain resolutions respecting salaries proposed to be paid to the Chief Justice and Judges mentioned in the Bill No. 31 to establish a Supreme Court and a Court of Exchequer for the Dominion of Canada. Mr. SCATCHERD in the chair.

Hon. Mr. FOURNIER said that by an Act recently passed in the Province of Nova Scotia it had been provided that seven County Court Judges should be appointed, and for that reason it became the duty of Parliament to provide for the salaries of those Judges. By the resolutions which he would submit to the Cominittee those Judges would be placed on tlie same footing as the County Judges of Ontario and New Brunswick, their salaries, travelling and retiring allowances being He proposed to change the resolutions so as to place the County Court Judge of the City and County of Halifax on the same footing as that of the City and County of St. John, who received $2,600 salary and travelling allowance, because the population of the two districts

the same.

Hon. Mr. Fournier.

To seven County Court Judges, each, not less than $1,000, and not more than $2,000, to be fixed by the Governor in Council, and that a sum not exceeding $200 for actual travelling expenses to be fixed as aforesaid, may be allowed to any of the County Court Judges, except the County Court Judge of the City and County of Halfax, whose salary shall be $2,600.

2. That it is expedient to provide that the said County Court Judges shall be subject, as regards retiring allowances or annuities based upon their salaries above mentioned, as is provided in respect to County Court Judges in either of the Provinces of Ontario, New Brunswick or Prince Edward Island, by the provisions. of the 37th Vic., Ch. 4, sec. 8.

Hon. Mr. BLAKE said that some years ago the salaries of the County Court · Judges in Ontario were arranged upon the principle-although not with respect to figures—what was laid down in the resolution before the House-that was to say-that there was a certain minimum and maximum between which the Governor in Council was empowered from time to time to fix and determine their salaries. That plan had not worked well in practice. It was found that those persons who received increases of salary were not just the persons who were best entitled to then; and irrespective of that he thought there was a theoretical as well as a practical objection to the Judges being dependent for their salaries upon the goodwill of the Government of the day. It was quite true, at this age of the world, that this objection was less substantial in practice than was formerly the case, but he did not know any sufficient reason why Parliament should delegate its powers with respect to the question of the salaries of the Judges, he advanced in this matter within the last two or three years under the late 'Administration to a more correct principle, and the salaries of the Judges in Ontario were not now determined on the principle laid down in this resolution.

sujet.

M. MASSON: Il me semble que la circonstance justifiait pleinement le dépu té de Charlevoix de poser sa question ; car il s'agit d'une distribution d'argent et de l'augmentation du salaire de certains juges. La question posée par l'hon. député ayant précisément rapport à ce sujet, je crois que l'hon. Ministre de la Justice devait, suivant son habitude, donner une réponse plus satifaisante à la question qui lui était posée.

There was a certain minimum salary fixed | régulière, je pourrai me consulter avec mes from which they increased after a certain collègues et lui donner une réponse à ce number of years service to the minimum, so that the amount of salary was made dependent on their length of service and was therefore an automatic operation. Unless there was some special reason, of which they had heard nothing, why the same principle should not be adopted in Nova Scotia, he thought the policy pursued in respect to the County Court Judges in Ontario should not be retrograded from. He invited the attention of the Minister of Justice to these considerations and asked him to determine before the next step was taken, whether the Government could not apply to the Province of Nova Scotia, as well as to other Provinces, a general principle of gradual increase if that was a correct principle, and if it was not some modification of that principle.

Hon. Mr. FOURNIER said that when the Bill was prepared the salaries would

be fixed.

Mr. PALMER asked whether the salaries of these Judges in Ontario did not in point of fact differ from the salaries of Judges in New Brunswick in this respect while the salaries of the latter were

fixed, the salaries of the former advanced according to age. That was his impression of the matter now, and he thought it was very desirable that they should be put on the same footing in all the Provinces.

M. CIMON: Il devra m'être permis de poser une question au sujet du salaire de certains juges de la province de Québec, savoir ceux des districts de Saguenay et de Gaspé, qui ont un salaire inférieur au salaire des autres juges de même jurisdiction. Autrefois cette différence pouvait avoir sa raison d'être, parce que les juges de ces deux districts avaient moins d'ouvrage que les autres juges. Mais maintenant que ces juges sont appelés à donner leur attention à des affaires aussi considérables que celles qui sont apportées devant les autres juges, leur salaire devrait être égal à celui de leurs collègues. Cela ne me parait que juste, et j'espère que l'honorable Ministre pourra me donner une réponse satisfaisante à cet égard.

L'hon. M. CAUCHON : l'hon. député de Terrebonne doit observer que l'hon. Ministre de la Justice lui a aussi dit qu'il lui fallait se consulter avec ses collègues, avant de pouvoir répondre à l'hon. membre, ce qui est une réponse satisfaisante.

Hon. Mr. MITCHELL trusted the hon. Minister of Justice would amend his resolutions in accordance with the suggestion of the hon. member for St. John. The system of graduated salaries, of which he entirely approved, should be applied to the New Brunswick Judges as well as to those of Ontario.

Hon. Mr. BLAKE said it would be

quite impossible to amend the resolutions
in such a manner as to add to the charge
introduce a new resolution.
on the country. The only mode was to

Hon. Mr. MITCHELL thanked his

hon. friend for the suggestion. He did not so much care how it was done as to

have it done.

M. TREMBLAY: Puisqu'il s'agit du salaire des Juges, je ferai au Gouvernement actuel la question que j'ai faite au Gouvernement précédent. Je demanderai donc pourquoi le Gouvernement n'augmenterait pas aussi les salaires des Juges de Bonaventure et de Gaspé. L'Administration précédente m'avait répondu que ces Juges ayant moins d'ouvrage n'avaient pas droit à un salaire aussi élevé que leurs collègues plus occupés. N'ayant pas trouvé cette raison suffisante dans le temps, je voudrais savoir ce que le Gouvernement actuel pense faire à ce sujet.

L'hon. M. FOURNIER: La question M. CIMON: le député de Charlevoix de l'honorable membre n'a aucun rapport posant au Gouvernement la question que à la résolution maintenant devant le comité je lui ai posé sans résultat, l'hon. Ministre de la chambre. Si l'hon. député de Char-de la Justice lui donnera sans doute une levoix désire avoir des renseignements à réponse plus complète et plus satisfaisante ce sujet, il devra faire une interpellation que celle qui lui a été faite à lui-même. Hon. Mr. Blake.