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proposed, an approximate calculation could be arrived at as to what would be the probable amount of shipping passing through the canal. In regard to the fogs and tides spoken of as existing in the Bay of Fundy, he was able to state that there had scarcely been a life lost in that bay within his memory. A ship might leave a point at the head of the Bay of Fundy and proceed to St. John at the rate of four miles an hour, and it would be hardly possible to run her on a rock, even if it was desired to do so. The representatives of the Maritime Provinces would not ask the House and the country to engage in any enormous outlay unless it would be demonstrated that the expenditure of the public money would be beneficial to the people of the Dominion.

Hon. Mr. BLAKE said that this item for the construction of an important public work important especially in point of expense had for a long time appeared in the estimates, and he regarded it as the settled policy of the country, which at any rate he was not prepared to dispute, that an equal amount, supposing the Baie Verte Canal should not be constructed, should be expended for some public purpose of national importance in the Maritime Provinces. He thought that the people of Ontariohe spoke now only for his own constituency -would sustain him in the statement that it having been the settled policy of Parliament, for a considerable number of years, that a large expenditure should take place upon this work they would be agreeable if it were proved to be unreasonable or impracticable to carry such work out—to an equal amount being expended in some other public works in which the Dominion had an interest. Therefore so far as he was concerned, speaking for his constituency, the only question he had to consider was whether that particular work was a fit one on which to expend the funds of the Dominion; upon that question he did not express any opinion. He thought it would not be becoming in him to solve the question which from the statement of the leader of the Government it appeared was not ripe for settlement, the necessary information to that end not being yet forth coming. But it did seem to him, while he agreed to the expenditure of that sum of money on that or some other public work of national importance in that quarter, that he ought not to be called upon to agree

Mr: Goudge.

to the expenditure of that amount of money on this public work until there was a case before the House on which Parliament could safely pronounce. Now he did not understand that the House was asked to pronounce in favor of the construction of that canal at this time upon the evidence before it.

He understood it to be said that the evidence was not such upon all the points as wouldˇ justify the Government in committing itself to the prosecution of that work absolutely, and until the evidence was in such a state as would justify the Government of this country in asking Parliament to make such an appropriation, he did not think Parliament ought to be asked to do it. He thought the true position to take in the present state of the case was thisthat the Government ought to take such a vote as was necessary in order that the investigations which the hon., the First Minister, had stated he was about to institute might be carried forward; and the House ought to be left perfectly free and unpledged as to whether $6,300,000 of the money of this country should be spent on that work.

Mr. MCDONNELL (Iverness) said he the House when in committee, but on condid not propose to offer any resolution to currence being taken he would probably submit a motion in order that it might be that he did on this question, he could not generalized. Entertaining the opinion Minister because the work would be useaccept the proposition made by the First less whether it was practicable or not. Holding these views he felt satisfied that the practicability of the work, would conno inquiry as to the necessary outlay, and vince him that it should be carried out, and he was determined therefore to oppose the passage of the item on every occasion when it came before the House.

Mr. CAUCHON asked if the state

ments made by the hon. member for South Bruce were to be taken as in any way indicating the policy resolved upon by the late Government, or as indicating the policy of the present Government. He was not going to bind himself to say that because a certain amount of money had been voted for a certain object, it must be expended whether that object was practicable or not, as compensation for abandoning it.

Item 85, public buildings at Ottawa, $375,125, was carried.

Hon. Mr. BLAKE said his remark | Government would be prepared with some was that speaking for himself and his own distinct proposition on the subject. constituents he was content if that par- The item was carried, ticular object turned out to be impracticable, and if there were objects of national importance in that section, to vote an equal amount towards those objects. He spoke merely for himself and not for the hon. member for Quebec.

was

Mr. KIRKPATRICK dissented from the view of the Premier that it Constitutional a principle to vote large amounts of money which the Administration claimed the power to expend on the report of a commission. The correct principle was that the report of that commission should be laid before this House, which alone should determine how the money should be voted. When he found hon. gentlemen opposite asking the House to pledge themselves not only to an expenditure of $1,000,000, but of $6,800,000, an outlay which from past experience he believed would not fall short of $10,000,000, he contended this expenditure should not be hastily incurred. This work was of a most doubtful character. Mr. PAGE reported Mr. KEEFER'S plan as most impracticable and foolish; Mr. KEEFER reported similarly on Mr. PAGE's plans. If there were any other reports on the subject they should be submitted to Parliament, and this House should decide whether the work should be proceeded with or not. He dissented entirely from the view that by putting this vote in the estimates the country was pledged to give to the Province, either for this work or for some other works, an equal amount if they should be considered of national importance. If there were works of national importance to be undertaken, they should be constructed whether this Baie Verte Canal was built or not, but he did not say that because this work did not goon they must get a similar sum. Though the hon. member for South Bruce did not use the word "compensation," his language bore that inference. He did not approve of that principle, He intended to vote against this appropriation, but would cheerfully vote for placing money in the hands of the Administration to inquire into the practicability of the work. Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE asked the Committee at present to pass this vote, and on concurrence upon the vote the Hon. Mr. Blake.

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On item 86, improvement of navigable rivers, $56,000,

Hon. Mr. MITCHELL asked what steps had been taken towards the removal of chains and anchors from the St. Lawrence.

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said it was found very difficult to get a suitable vessel built. However, the work would be accomplished very rapidly in the spring.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER asked if the Government intended to dredge Wallace River?

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE replied that the only dredge suited for the work, the Cape Breton, had been engaged all the season in other parts of Nova Scotia. The work would be done as soon as possible.

Mr. RYAN asked if the item voted last year for the improvement of the naviga tion of Red River, Manitoba, had been expended?

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE-A portion

of it.

Mr. RYAN-Will the remainder of it be expended ?

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE-It is not required, I believe.

M. CIMON : L'hon. Premier Ministre me permettra de lui poser de nouveau une question que je lui ai déjà faite, pour lui demander si c'est l'intention du Gouvernement d'améliorer cette partie du Saguenay appelée le “Bras de Chicoutimi." Il existe en cet endroit une batture longue d'un mille et large de 10 à 15 pieds, et ce n'est que depuis un certain temps que les bateaux à vapeur s'aventurent trois fois par semaine à marée haute, jusqu'à Chicoutimi. Si le Gouvernement prenait ce sujet sous sa considération, et qu'il n'en coutât pas trop cher pour faire cette amélioration, il ferait un grand bien à la canse de la colonisation dans les districts de Chicoutimi et du Saguenay, qui constituent un des endroits les plus importants du pays. Tou! que je demande c'est qu'un ingénieur visite cet endroit et y consacre quelques jours à faire un examen sérieux de cette partie de la rivière du Saguenay qui a besoin d'être débarrassée de cette bature. Les ingénieurs sont payés par tout le pays, et il me semble que Chicoutimi peut aussi bien requérir

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leurs serivces que les autres parties by the Government. Emigrants were du pays. Il n'y a rien dans les estimés now going by the United States. He pour Chicoutimi, et il n'est que juste que knew it was not the intention of the Govle Gouvernement accède à cette demande. ernment to drive them that way, but that Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE replied that was the effect of their policy. instructions had been given the engineer to make a report on it.

The item was passed.

On item 87, Lake Superior and Red River route, $100,000,

Mr. SCHULTZ asked whether the Government intend to give the contract for the Dawson Route to the same parties who had it last year.

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE replied that it had been given them again.

Mr. SCHULTZ wished to know if it was the intention of the Government to give closer supervision over the route.

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said he was not aware that the supervision was not close. The Government expected that there would be a corps of engineers in connection with the Pacific Railway survey at both ends of that route during the whole of the coming season, and the business of the road would be conducted hereafter in connection with the Pacific Railway

survey.

Mr. MASSON said it was deplorable that the Government had not a better means of taking emigrants to the NorthWest than they had last season. While he was going to Red River himself last season, he was dissuaded from going by the Dawson route by the very persons whose duty it should be to urge him to go that way. He was informed by great friends of the hon. Minister of Public Works that the road was managed in such a way that really emigrants could not go up. A gentleman from London had a span of horses with him, and had very great difficulty in getting them off the boats at the portagés. There was no management at all. The huts were dirty and could hardly be used. Now, he knew the Minister of Public Works could not see to everything himself, and he merely drew the hon. gentleman's attention to the facts. So long as that road was leased with a bonus it would not give satisfaction. It would be better to give larger prices to transport emigrants than to follow the present system, because the contractor now is merely interested in keeping the road open to get the, bonus. The road should not be leased but managed M. Cimon.

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Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said he came into office in December 1873, and was obliged to do the best they could with this route. He was able, however, for the sum of $76,000 to do what it took over $400,000 to accomplish the year before, and he contended the arrangements were better under the lease than under the management of the Government. There were more emigrants carried over it, and there was more comfort.

Mr. MASSON could not contradict the hon. gentleman, but he moved for returns which had only been brought down to July 1873, showing the number of emigrants who had passed over the road. Until later returns were furnished him, he could not say anything on that subject.

Mr. YOUNG said the enormous expense of the Dawson route under Government management made a change desirable. That change was one which, on the whole, had worked in a tolerably satisfactory manner. One cause, no doubt, that had prevented it from working so well as expected was, that there was a great rush of emigrants just at the beginning of the season, before the contractors had time to complete their arrangements. But, just before the close of navigation, he knew from gentlemen who had passed over the route that they travelled with tolerable comfort. It would be too soon to pass judgment on the system of the present Governinent. Next season, he had every reason to believe, the management would be satisfactory, and the country would be saved great expense.

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE, in reply to Mr. MASSON, said he understood the number of passengers on the Dawson route last year was between 2,000 and 2,500, and fully one-half of those were carried within the first three weeks after the road was opened, and before the contractors were quite ready for them. He remembered years ago the laborious trip up the St. Lawrence before railways and steamboats were available, yet people thought comparatively little of the three weeks' journey. Now there were complaints from emigrants if it took half that time to go twice the distance. He had an exact

statement of the provisions sent to the, priety of finding out whether this vote various points on the line, and he found were sufficient to carry out the work that the contractors only received some satisfactorily. $39, while carrying 1100 passengers over the line. In fact, there was a kind of a mob at one time, and they used the contractors as they pleased. He heard that there was suffering at the North-West angle at one time, and he telegraphed to Lieut. Governor MORRIS to inquire into the condition of the supplies there. It was found that the principal part of the suffering was simply because of people eating the contractor's meal without paying for them. They were compelled to refuse these parties food when they would not pay for it. Some of them, no doubt, had very little money, and might have suffered a little, but there was no serious distress. Hon. Mr. CARTWRIGHT said the actual expenditure on the Dawson route for the year ending June 30th, 1874, was $119,368.

Hon. Mr. MITCHELL said this was not fair comparison. A large amount of this should have been charged to capital account, having been expended in the construction of houses, bridges, etc.

Mr. SCHULTZ said it was true that some of the stopping places on the route were dirty and the management was bad, but the road had proved of great service to the country. It had caused a reduction of rates on the American lines to our country. That fact alone would warrant the expenditure on the road. It was no fault of the Government that they expended so much on the road, since by doing so they secured lower rates on the American lines. While he could not agree with the hon. member for Terrebonne as to the value of the road, he could not agree with the Premier as to its management during the past year. He (Mr. SCHULTZ) believed it was thoroughly mismanaged, and reports from emigrants over it would bear out his statement. There was no responsible agent in Winnipeg. Almost every emigrant who came through complained that his goods had been damaged by water, and he had grievances of all sorts, but no one to make them to. If he went to the officers of the Dominion, they protested that they had no responsibility, and the whole matter was in the hands of the contractor. He did not mention these matters to censure the Government, but to suggest the proHon. Mr. Mackenzie.

W

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said the officer who had been employed by the late Government to superintend this work, Mr. DAWSON, had had been continued by the present Administration. It was quite impossible to get the goods of the emigrants transported without getting wet, but the real hardships complained of were the want of food, and the nature of the shelter at the halting places. The statements generally were greatly exaggerated. The great difficulty arose in the first three weeks of the season, when more emigrants passed over the route than had passed over it for three years before, and before the new contractor had got fairly to work. He (Mr. MACKENZIE) had seen a number of people who had travelled by the route, but so far as he could learn, at least after the first three or four weeks, there was no case of real suffering. The contractors had in several instances been obliged to pay heavy damages for injury done to goods from getting wet in the course of the transit. With regard to the expenditure upon the route, $198,000 had been appropriated in 1873 for the service ; subsequently there were Orders in Council passed for sums of $30,000 and 15,000 respectively; there was a cash revenue of $15,000; and besides these amounts he had himself to make provision for $145,000 after coming into office; no portion of which was for any work upon the road. He then submitted a detailed account of account of the expenditures, which amounted in all to $399,628, besides which there were some additional items not paid in that but in the following year.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER said it was quite impossible that the expenditure had been so grossly extravagant as the figures quoted seemed to indicate, and the fact that the Government continued in office the inspector under whose supervision those expenses had been incurred was the best proof that they thought there was no mis-management, and that under the circumstances the best had been done that was possible. Much of the money referrred to in the statement read by the Premier must have been in connection with the improvement of the road.

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE-Much of it.

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Hon Mr. TUPPER said there was what was commonly known as "cheap and nasty," and it was just possible that if hon. gentlemen opposite were willing to spend more money upon the route the term would be less applicable to it. Every one knew there had been loud and grievous complaints against the management of the road during the past season, and no doubt Our American neighbors pocketed the results of it in the shape of railway fares. He considered it was a great misfortune to us that those who were seeking our western prairies could not be conveyed over our own lines of communication. No doubt the contractor labored under great difficulties, and the Government would be justified in giving him such remuneration as would enable him to do his work in a manner creditable to the country and comfortable to the passengers

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said that the

On item 88, $370,000, Public Buildings in Ontario,

Mr. WOOD inquired if the Minister of Public Works proposed to erect the immigrant sheds at Hamilton on Government property. He pointed out the difficulty and danger there was in having the sheds located in their present position.

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE promised the necessary information on concurrence.

Mr. McMILLAN said there was a considerable amount of money expended last year on the Post Office at London, and he was informed no tender had been asked for, either in the newspapers or any other public way. He desired to know in what way the contract was given out.

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE replied that the officer of the department had given the contract. He promised to bring down papers with all the information. The item was passed.

On item 89, $233,500, for public build

service was efficiently performed, and ings in Quebec Province,

en

Hon. Mr. MITCHELL stated there were several explanations he would call for on concurrence.

The Committee then rose and reported, and the House adjourned at 12.50 a.m.

HOUSE OF

COMMONS.

Wednesday, March 3rd, 1875.
The SPEAKER took the chair at three

after the first three weeks there was no unusual difficulty. If the buildings were nasty, as the hon. member for Cumberland had intimated, they were in the same condition as they were left by the Government of which the hon. gentleman was a member. If the Government had dismissed the officers of all the mis-managed departments, 2.11 tirely new set of officials would be required. With respect to the service referred to, the Government P. M. had made a wholesome change and next season still further improvements would be effected. Without a railway it would be impossible to compete with the Ameri-petition which he had this day presented from FRASER, REYNOLDS, & Co., asking means of transportation, and every possible effort would be made to push for that they be heard by Counsel before the ward the line from Lake Superior westward Public Accounts sub-Committee, be now and from Georgian Bay eastward. In the meantime the navigation would be improved so that in the course of two years at least we would have reduced the journey to Manitoba to a journey occupying something like two or three days.

can

Mr. WHITE did not know that there was very great reason to find fault with

the manner in which the service had been
performed. The contractors were honor
able men and very anxious to do their
duty, and there was every reason to hope
that next year they would do better.

The item was then passed.
Hon. Mr. Tupper.

A QUESTION OF ORDER.

Mr. DOMVILLE moved that the

received and read.

Hon. Mr. HOLTON-That motion cannot be made without notice.

Mr. KIRKPATRICK read the rule of that the present case was one of urgency the House upon the subject and contended which brought it within the rule which allowed petitions in certain cases to be brought up immediately.

Hon. Mr. HOLTON said the motion for the reception of a petition could only be made on the day on which it was receivable by the House or a subsequent day, and this petition was not receivable till the day after to-morrow.

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