that he had heard objections raised that the ports on the lakes would not give 14 feet of water. That statement be denied. At the time the Canal Commission sat, circulars were distributed over the country addressed to our leading men in which questions were put as to the capacity of the various harbors on the lakes, and this was the information obtained : Port Hope had 15 feet of water, and Kingston, Newcastle, Darlington, Toronto, and Hamilton, 14 feet, and Oswego, 18 feet. Going up still further to lake Erie we find the harbors with the following depths of water :-Port Colborne, Maitland, Stanley, Buffalo, Erie, and St. Clair Flats, fourteen feet. On lake Michigan, Chicago, Milwaukee, and Sault had 14 feet. On Lake Superior the harbors contained any depth of water that might be required. There were no doubt some well as to the circumstances of the present time, and he maintained that it was the duty of the Government in dealing with this question to bear that fact in mind, and to lay them as broad as it was possible to make them. He differed, however, from some members of the House in reference to the expenditure necessary to accomplish these objects. He held that if it be possible to so enlarge the navigation of the St. Lawrence in order that vessels might pass from Lake Ontario down to the Gulf ports, it was the duty of the Government to enlarge the channels of navigation so as to permit of the requisite class of vessels passing through. It became necessary, therefore, to consider what vessels were best suited to those ports. And so far as he could understand the best class for the present trade—though it was not the best for an increased trade-was the class of vessels small ports that had less than 14 feet of drawing between fourteen and fifteen feet water, but looking at the list he had enof water. The question, then, was umerated to the House, no man could whether the Government should under the truthfully say that the ports on the lakes circumstances re-consider the policy which could not be made available to they seem to have adopted, and enlarge the depth of 14 or 15 feet of water. those channels and so enable us to pass He asked a question bearing on from Lake Ontario down to salt water a this subject the other day of the Governclass of vessels that would suit all the ment and in answering it the Prime Minpurposes of the trade of this country. ister stated that it would cost such a large carrying our products to the lower ports sum of money to increase the capacity of and bringing back coal for the people of these channels of communication that he the upper Provinces. This question of (the hon. Minister), would not be justified coal supply was an important one for their in making the expenditure. He held in consideration. Wood as fuel was fast dis- his hand the report of the Chief Engineer appearing, and we must resort to coal. If of Public Works that had since that time the United States were to cut off our sup-been printed, and he was prepared to state ply of coal what would be the consequences? that there was no substantial difficulty We would have to pay $18.50 per ton to in obtaining 20 feet of water in the St. bring it by rail from the coal mines at Lawrence, and there was no single reach Pictou Landing, and lay it on the wharves in all the canals along that line of comat Toronto, and it would therefore be quite munication that would not require to be impossible to obtain under these circum- deepened in order to obtain 12 feet of stances. Looking at all the circumstances water. It was a simple question whether it became our duty to consider whether we or not the workmen should go go to would be able to open up these channels an additional depth of a few feet SO as to secure a trade that would or not. If the estimated cost on benefit all sections of the Dominion. It the Welland Canal were deduced, it must also be borne in mind that we have would be found that the entire expenditure a country in the North-West that must be necessary to obtain a twelve foot chanel settled, and be desired to show that our would be $5,000,000, and when hon. vessels would be able to carry grain from a members remembered the immense sums point 452 miles west of Lake Superior, of money invested in the various chanels within the boundary of Manitoba to the of communication from the West to the Liverpool market at a saving of 50 cents a East, the item appeared insignificant in bushfel. Before proceeding further with the extreme. $150,000,000 were invested this branch of the subject he might remark in the Grand Trunk, $210,000,000 in the M.. Blain. York for insurance, storage, transfer expenses and commission were 25 cents ; and the transportation to Liverpool 26 cents; making altogether $1.85 per bushel as the price at which wheat from the Mississippi Valley be laid down at LiverNow, take Our Own North could pool. New York Central, $219,000,000 in the Erie Railway; the total amount of money invested by the United Stated in chanels of communication of this description amount to $450,000,000. By making the small expenditure of five millions we would be able to open up a highway that could never be subjected to monopoly, and controlled by discriminating tariffs. In West. Starting from a point 450 miles his judgment, it would be the most short-west of Lake Superior, he estimated the sighted policy ever adopted if it was pos- freight, according to the highest rates of sible for the Government to give the coun- the New York Central, at 15 mills per try this 15 feet chanel of communication ton per mile, or $6.75 for the 450 miles to through the St. Lawrence, and they refused Thunder Bay. From Thunder Bay to to give it. He invited the House to look Montreal, by lake and river, 885 miles, at at the bearings of this question. Let hon. 3 mills per ton per mile, $2,655; by canal, members look at the trade which would 103 miles, at 6 mills per ton per mile, 618 flow from the vast grain-growing countries mills; and from Montreal to Liverpool, of the West, if we enlarge our canals and 3,029 miles, at 2 mills per ton per inile, improve our line of water communication. $6,058; making the total freight from a He asked the attention of the House to point 450 miles west of Lake Superior to the fact that the United States in 1872 Liverpool, $16,058 per ton, or 48 cents sent to market 220 millions and had a surper busliel. Taking land in the Northplus that never reached the market, but which might have reached it of 280 mil lions. He also asked the House to compare the countries that competed in the Liverpool market with our country. In Russia he estimated the value of the land at $85 an acre, which at 8 per cent. and allowing twelve bushels to the acre would give a rental of 57 cents per bushel por acre. The labor which was chiefly by hand, which was required to produce a bushel of wheat he valued at 79 cents, making the productive price of grain in Russia about $1.36 per bushel. The transportation charges to the sea coast he put at 25 cents, and thence to Liverpool, including transhipment, 20 cents, making in all $1.81 as the price at which Russia could lay down wheat at Liverpool. Now the people of England were able to raise a bushel of grain for about $1.70, so that the fariner there had an advantage of 10 cents a bushel. Turning next to the Valley of the Mississippi, he found that in the well-settled portions land could be bought for about $40 per acre, and taking the interest at 10 per cent and calculating 14 bushels to the acre the rental per bushel per acre would be about 28 cents, labor which was chiefly by machinery, he estimated at 47 cents per bushel, making the productive price 75 cents per bushel. It was established by a Congressional report that the cost of transportation to New York was 55 cents; the charges at New Air Dlain. West worth $6 per acre, and allowing 10 per cent interest, the rental per bushel per acre would be five cents; labor, chiefly by machinery, required to produce a bushel, 50 cents; and freight, as he had just established, 48 cents; making a total of $1.03, or a difference in favor of the North-West of 78 cents as compared with Russia and the Mississippi Valley. However, that there might be no controversy over this calculation, le would take 50 cents a bushel as the balance of advantage in our favor. Last year there was purchased in the Liverpool market of imported wheat something like 85 million bushels, and 50 cents a bushel saved upon that would make no less than $42,500,000. He had taken great care to ascertain the correctness of these figures, and he had not reached this conclusion without the most careful examination. In view of these facts no one could doubt the importance of our deepening our canals so that we could command the advantages he had pointed out. We were now entering upon the work of deepening our canals, and it was of the utmost consequence that we did not, after all our expenditure, fall short of accomplishing the end we had in view. A little more expenditure now might save us a much larger amount a few years hence. But it was not only desirable to deepen our canals on account of the trade with England, but in order to afford better means of communication between the Upper and the Maritime Pro- | the proper size for the connecting links of Mr. McKAY (Cape Breton) did not see how the deepening of the St. Lawrence Canal would increase the coal trade with the Lower Provinces, unless something was done to check the importation of coal into Ontario from the United States. Nova Scotia depended to a large extent on her coal for her prosperity, but the tax of 75 cents per ton imposed by the United States upon all coal exported to that country, had a depressing effect on the trade. The distance between Nova Scotia and Ontario was so very great that unless some discriminating duty was placed on coals imported into Canada from the United States, Nova Scotia vessels would not find it profitable to come to Ontario. With such a duty, however, as that imposed by the United States Government, vessels could carry coal from Nova Scotia to Ontario and take back return freights. In this way the public would be more than remunerated for the increased price they would have to pay for coal. Mr. McCALLUM was willing to vote for a tax on coals, though be used large quantities of them himself, if a tax were put on wheat, flour, and grain imported into the Dominion. On a former occasion he voted for such an arrangement, and he would do so again. was Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said there no objection to the adoption of the motion except this there were no such papers to bring down. The House Was in possession of all the information that could be given upon the subject. He quite appreciated the arguments that had been used in favor of having a 14 feet navigation. The question they had to decide was whether it was better in the meantime, at a comparatively early day to get a 12 feet navigation, which might be enlarged at a future day to a 14 feet navigation. The hon. member for York quite under-estimated the difficulties of obtaining a 14 feet depth of channel in the St. Lawrence river. The hon. gentleman said they were trifling. On the contrary they were immense. large portion of the river would have to be deepened two or three feet in order to obtain fourteen feet. As it is, a little over $1,500,000 must be expended to obtain a Mr. NORRIS said this matter had been 12 feet navigation, and to extend it to 14 so thoroughly discussed that it was unnec-feet, many miles of the river, where it essary to say anything further on the was all rocks at the bottom would have to subject. He was satisfied to leave the be deepened. matter in the hands of the Premier, who was a practical man, and would do what was best in the interests of the country. Mr. THOMSON (Welland) did not rise for the purpose of disturbing the policy of the Government, but still he did not see that any harm would be done by a few remarks, relative to the proper size of the canals. It had always occurred to him that the vast extent of the lakes and the magnificence of the St. Lawrence dictated Mr. Blain A very Mr. BLAIN said the report stated that twenty feet could be obtained without difficulty. Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said there was, then, the greater necessity why he should state the difficulty which existed in obtaining a fourteen feet navigation. Besides, it must be remembered there was a serious difference of opinion among gentlemen engaged in the forwarding trade as to the advisability of taking large vessels. | He had increastraffic, below the Port of Kingston at all. A of vessels should be able to navigate it— very large number engaged in the busi- that vessels plying between Chicago, ness believed it was to their advantage to Milwaukee, and Buffalo, should be able to shift the cargo into smaller vessels at come down through the Welland Canal, Kingston and carry it down to Montreal and eastward by the St. Lawrence and its or Quebec, there to be trans-shipped to canals, instead of being compelled as at sea-going ships. He knew that owners of present to pass through the Erie Canal. sailing vessels who had sent them to the Suppose that the proposition to give 12. ocean more as an experiment than as a feet of water on the St. Lawrence were matter of business, after doing so for sev- carried into effect to-morrow, he still eral years, abandoned it because it did not held that Buffalo and the Erie route pay. That it would pay with larger can- would have the preference, for the simple als, there could be no doubt, but whether reason that the price per ton for transit would ever pay to send vessels from the porting freight by water depended entirely extreme end of the upper lakes, drawing upon the capacity of the vessels available fourteen feet of water, across the Atlantic, for the service. He felt pleased to hear and to South America was a question yet from the Minister of Public Works that to be determined. Personally, he did not the proposed deepening to a capacity of believe it would pay unless with a class of 12 feet would not prevent an ultimate propellers, somewhat similar to those used deepening to 14 feet-a course which, he in navigating the waters of the Lower repeated, would be absolutely necessary in Danube and trading with Great Britain. the course of a very short time. Those propellers were about one thousand heard a great deal about tons burden, and he believed they carried ing OUT St. Lawrence on a very prosperous trade, but except in and of directing through it а passing the Bay of Biscay, they did much larger proportion of the trade of the not encounter any serious difficulties of West. That such an increase would take navigation. Our vessels would have to place with the proper facilities even in encounter the whole Atlantic ocean, and regard to trade destined to Europe, he at times when the weather would be very felt in no doubt, but he was also convinced rough. He knew it was a problem yet that we would never direct any great prowhether that business would ever suc- portion of the produce of the West through ceed. It would certainly pay to carry a the St. Lawrence until we had made a cargo of say 60,000 bushels through the connection in the Eastern States, so that Welland Canal, elevate it at Kingston and we might get our share of that volume carry it in smaller vessels to tide-water, that passed from the Western to the Eastthere transhipping it to sea-going vessels. ern States. As compared to that trade, The cost of elevating the grain would be the amount that passed through the St. about two or two and a quarter cents per Lawrence to Europe was a mere driblet. bushel. In the meantime, all he could The Eastern States were supplied with say as to the policy of the Government bread-stuffs almost entirely from the West: was this—they were proceeding to obtain and some of them did not produce enough at as early a day as possible a twelve foot in a whole year to feed their population navigation, and if it should be found de- for more than a month. The great bulk sirable or profitable on further considera- of this trade passed not by the St. Lawtion to obtain a greater depth, there was rence, but by the Erie Canal and other nothing in what they were doing at pre-routes, and we could not get that trade sent that would much increase the cost of till we had water communication with the doing so at a future day. Eastern States. The statistics to his hand only dated down to 1872. In that year the traffic through the Erie Canal amounted to 3,647,000 tons while that through the St Lawrence only amounted to 681,000, or not one fifth of the traffic of the Erie Canal. This was the case simply because we could not direct through our waters that portion of the Western trade destined for Montreal and for Europe; He was Mr. YOUNG said it would ultimately be found advisable to deepen the Welland Canal to fourteen feet. His reason for thinking so was that it would be absolutely necessary if we were going to make the St. Lawrence what nature intended it should be the great highway for transporting the products of the West to the Atlantic Ocean-that a larger class Hon. Mr. Mackenzie. rence it possible improve the Erie Canal, in order He convinced that if we wished to get our | terms that the policy of the State would share of this traffic it would be necessary be to enlarge, deepen, and in every way to have water communication to some point in the Eastern States, and therefore if we intended to perfect our St. Lawand Ottawa canal systems, would be absolutely necessary to construct a canal from the St. Lawrence river to Lake Champlain. Till then our St. Lawrence and Otawa routes would be quite incomplete, whereas if that connection was made the traffic through our channels would be trebled. He would not enter into the question of cost, but would simply state that Mr. WALTER SHANLEY had estimated it at fourteen and a half millions for ten feet of water upon the mitre sills. We had a report on the subject from Mr. SHANLEY, and Mr. MACALPINE in which they stated that this route would shorten the distance between the western lake ports and New York by six days time, and reduce the freight by twenty cents a ton, which would be quite sufficient to turn the trade through this channel. At present when we were only receiving about 15 per cent of the western traffic the revenue of our canals was but a very small sum over the cost of main-red in loading and unloading. To increase tenance. If we could get even half of that traffic the revenue would be sufficient to pay a reasonable interest on the capital invested, and we would see ten vessels on the St. Lawrence and our lakes where to-day we only see one. Mr. FLUMB said he had had some considerable correspondence with the professional gentlemen named by his hon.❘ friend from Waterloo, and he knew something too about the carrying trade from Lake Champlain down the Hudson. The Champlain canal was four feet deep and forty feet of top width, and both it and that portion of the Hudson River below Albany would have to be deepened before vessels passing through the Caughnawaga Canal could go to New York. The policy of the State of New York was not to create and not even to encourage any route which would compete with the Erie Canal. He was quite aware that during the late negotiations at Washington a proposition was made that the United States should use their influence with the State of New York to destroy its revenue paying canal, but the Governor of the State had, in his message to the Legislature, put his foot down upon any such proposition, and declared in the clearest r. Young. the labour connected with that branch of the trade by rendering lightening and reloading necessary would be very greatly to increase the cost of transportation, and he trusted that whatever improvements would be made in the navigation of the canals and water courses, every effort would be made to reduce rather than increase labour and expense of this character. His Mr. BLAIN, in closing the debate, expressed gratification at finding that the Minister of Public Works was likely to take the matter into consideration. own apprehension was that the policy of the Government had been settled, and that they had determined upon a maximum of 12 feet of water. He pointed out that the tendency had been upon all occasions to cheapen the cost of transportation in prcportion to the increase in the size of vessels, and it had been shown by experience that each increase in the capacity of the Welland Canal was a lowering of freight rates by one-half, Abont one-sixth of the vessels navigating the Upper Lakes could not pass through the Welland Canal, and he showed on a vessel of 500 tons passing through the Welland Canal, the daily expense would be $125; that upon a vessel carrying 2,000 tons, or 1,500 more |