Sir JOHN A. MACDONALD-It can be done by statute. Mr. MILLS said there were several in 1787. till the establishment of the last important features in this Bill which territorial government, there was scarcely would require special attention. One was any difference in the plan of government, that relating to the powers given to and they had never found it necessary to the Lieut. Governor in Council. The depart from the general principle laid Premier spoke of their having power to down in the ordinance of 1787. It establish schools, build roads and bridges seemed to him we ought not to refuse to and do other works of a municipal character. profit by the experience of others under It was extremely doubtful whether the similar circumstances to our own. In Governor in Council could have any of order to accomplish the object he had rugthese powers. It was proposed to furnish gested, the Government should know what the money for these objects out of the moneys they had expended on public Dominion Treasury then it might be done, buildings and works in these territories, but the Crown itself had no power to im- which might afterwards become the prepose taxes upon any portion of the com- perty of the Local Government, and in munity, and of course could not delegate that case it would only be fair that when to any Lieut. Governor in Council powers the time came for the admission of the terriwhich it did not itself possess. It could tory into the Union, the money so expended not authorize a Governor in Council to could be charged to it as a public debt. establish a municipal system and provide He saw no difficulty in this being done, for the taxation of the people. but thought it should be embraced in the fundamental law. The hon. member for Northumberland had stated that ManiMr. MILLS—That is another matter. If toba should have a sea-port town and its it was intended, therefore, that these things boundary ought to be extended to the should be done, it seemed to him provision shores of Lake Superior. If the hon. must be made in the Bill for their being gentleman would look into the question, done by Parliament. There was another he would find Ontario had something to matter it seemed to him ought not to be say on that matter, and he had no hesitadisregarded; and that was the terms and tion in saying-seeing that it was to be conditions under which these people would decided on judicial principles-he did not ultimately be formed into a Province. It think it was competent for the Dominion would be better that the people who settle Government to decide it otherwise than that territory should know beforehand the was proposed. Under the Quebec Act of terms and conditions under which they 1774, the western limit of what now would become an organized part of the remained to us as the old Province of Dominion. He saw no objection, when the Quebec was fixed at the forks of the Saskpopulation became sufficiently large, to al-atchewan, and the head waters of the lowing that territory to be represented in the Dominion Parliament before it was organized into a Province. By and by we would be called upon, when Provinces came to be organized in that territory, to state what liabilities the Dominion should assume, and what revenues should be given to the Local Government, and it seemed to him it was just as well that this should be done at the beginning so that there would be no room for dispute or difficulty in the future. If some definite plan was adopted, the people would become accustomed to it, and no embarrassment or trouble would arise when it came to bé carried into effect. Those who observed the American territorial system of government would notice that from the time the first government was organized under the ordinance enacted by Congress Mr. Mills. Mississippi. By an Order in Council that Manitoba within those limits but he apprehended if a judicial decision should be sought from this arbitration instead of extending the boundary of Manitoba to the shores of Lake Superior, this Parliament would be called upon to compensate Ontario for a very considerable portion they had acquired from that Pro vince. The Bill was read a first time. THE NORTHERN RAILWAY. Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE moved that the clerk read the resolutions regarding the Northern Railway Company adopted last session.--Carried. to the Company-that was, practically, the bond-holders who controlled the Company-to commute the shares so as to extinguish them at a certain time. He had not thought it desirable that the interest held by the city of Toronto and the county of Simcoe should be considered at all, but rather were contributions of $200,000 each to this railway. They were treated simply as bonuses, though the Bill provided they might still retain a part of the direction of the road. The Bill provided also for the appointment of a Government director, who should control the financial expenditure until the full amount mentioned in the resolutions should be paid. Hon. Mr. BLAKE said the Premier had combined with a public measure provisions which were essentially features of a private Bill. The clause referring to the amalgamation of the companies should have been introduced as a private Bill. In fact, all the features of the measure, except those relating to the Government debt, were subject matters of private legislation, and private legislation must be proceeded with in a regular manner. What did this Bill propose? There were private shareholders in this road, a considerable number of them, and also the city of Toronto with its £50,000 stock, and the county of Simcoe with £50,000 more. It was proposed that individual shareholders should be commuted on certain terms, but the shares of the city of Toronto and the county of Simcoe were to be considered as bonuses. IIe thought Toronto and Simcoe had a right to be heard on that matter, and this part of the measure be introduced as a private Bill in the regular manner and dealt with as such. He would discuss the question of the amalgamation of the companies at a future stage of the Bill, if Mr. SPEAKER should rule that it was in order to combine with a measure for the remission of a public debt provisions which were essentially features of a private Bill. The resolutions were accordingly read. Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE asked leave to introduce a Bill to re-arrange the capital of the Northern Railway Company of Canada, to enable the said Company to change the gauge and to awalgamate the Northern Extension Co., and for other purposes. He said the object of the Government was to give effect to the resolution of last session, and make this financal arrangement with the Company, but at the representation of the Company, the Government had agreed to have a Bill introduced incorporating these several objects. Practically the Northern Extension and the North Grey Railroads were part of the Northern Railway system. They had what might be called a permanent agreement, and therefore a complete amalgamation of these Companies with the Northern Railway was a mere matter of course, and though the provisions relating to the amalgamation had no place in this measure, he agreed to allow it to be considered in connection with it. The several clauses of the Bill simply provided for the manner in which the Government were to receive the sum stipulated in the resolutions and made a priority for their own bonds in addition to the £100,000 sterling. In regard to the shareholders who were practically shut out by the Acts now in force, he had a great many representations from the holders of ordinary shares in reference to their position. They were extremely anxious to be placed in a position to or-mittee of the shareholders who were here, ganize the Company themselves. To some and the solicitor for the company. The extent an opportunity had been afforded hon. member for Muskoka had a Bill relatthem to see what they could do. The at- ing to the Northern Railway and those tempt was an utter failure, and one of the provisions should have been in his Bill. clauses now provide that it should be left' It could be done yet if the notice covered Mr. Mills. Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said he was prepared to eliminate these features from the Bill. They were introduced by the law clerk in conjunction with the com it. As to the provisions in this measure friends-he had no friends' interests to with regard to private shareholders, they serve, and there were no friends' interests were introduced with the consent of the | served that he knew of; and if the hon. shareholders' committee, and he understood gentleman knew a single fact to justify that all parties were quite agreed on the his expression, he asked the hon. gentlesubject. man now to state it, and he would make a reply. Mr. SPEAKER said the provisions of the Bill which were of a private nature should be dealt with as a private Bill. The Bill was withdrawn, PACIFIC RAILWAY. On concurrence in item No. 72, $6,250,000, for the Pacific Railway, Hon. Mr. TUPPER asked for further explanations from the Government. Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE thought that the Governement or any private member submitting a proposition would have the right of reply. Hon. Mr. TUPPER said that after his speech the other night, which was unanswered and unanswerable, he had hoped that the Premier, having had some time to reconsider this important question, might have been enabled to make such a statement as would not compel him to continue his opposition to the present Government policy. Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE thought he had made a very exhaustive statement in proposing the vote, and if the hon. member would indicate what would satisfy him, he would be willing to make further remarks. He had said all that he had thought necessary under the circumstances, and all he now proposed to do was simply to notice two or three remarks upon which the hon. member for Cumberland had laid much stress. First, as the personal honor of every member of this House ought to be their first care, he would say a few words in relation to the expressions made use of by the hon. member in connection with some other matters which appeared in the principal organ of the members of the Opposition (The Mail). The hon. member for Cumberland said in the course of his speech that he did not mean to insinuate that he (Mr. MACKENZIE) had brought the railway to Thunder Bay for reasons personal to himself, although his first words indicated even that charge; but the hon. member had charged him with listening to the advice of interested friends. He took this opportunity to declare to the House, and to the hon. member, that he was never advised by any Hon. Mr. Mackenzie. : Hon. Mr. TUPPER said the hon., the First Minister, had put the matter in a very pointed manner. He (Mr. TUPPER) had never charged the hon. gentleman with having done anything to promote his own interest in the steps he had taken; but he had stated, and he repeated, that there was so large a difference between the policy propounded to the House by the hon. gentleman last year, and the policy he now proposed that he feared the hon. the First Minister had listened to the advice of parties who felt a deep interest in diverging the Pacific Railway from Nipegon to Thunder Bay. It was well-known that there were a large number of persons in Toronto who possessed great influence, and who were deeply interested in the development of the mineral lands and other resources of Thunder Bay. Those who had had any experience in the administration of the public affairs of this country knew that when there were great interests at stake, men of great influence generally found some means of bringing that influence to bear as strongly as possible on those who had the control of affairs. He would be very sorry to allow the hon. the First Minister or any member of the House to suppose that he insinuated anything more than that the First Minister had been induced to make a most unfortunate change in the policy proposed by him last session, and in that he was supported by the member for South Bruce, who distinctly stated to the House that he was led to believe that the policy would be different. Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE regretted that the hon. member for Cumberland could not be more explicit, as he had insinuated a charge which was utterly without foundation. He would state to the House again, that he (Mr. MACKENZIE) did not know a single friend of his, either political or personal, who had derived any benefit from having the road at the Lake Superior end located at Thunder Bay. He was not either induced, influenced or approached by any person in any place, except by the inhabitants of Prince Arthur Landing, who pressed him, as it was natural they should do, to have the road brought to that place; but it was not car ried there. Hon. Mr. TUPPER accepted fully the statement made by the hon. the First Minister. Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said he would read to the House the following statement which was published in the Mail the other day : "He (Mr. MACKENZIE) tells us his purchases were in the public interest, that he took advanage of a low market, and that if he had waited to a later date the country would in all probability have had to pay higher prices. This may all be as the First Minister states. The prices which he paid seem reasonable, But if there is any force in the contention upon which he and his party have heretofore so strongly insisted, the question of price is of small consequence in comparison with the question of principle What right had he then to make the purchase? None whatever. With the taint of oil-well scandals and silver 'rings' yet about his skirts, the Premier has surely not yielded to the temptation of enriching another relative by allowing him to purchase these rails for the Government." * * He noticed that article because he wished to dispose of the whole matter once for all. The allusion here was one of the repeated insinuations made in that paper lately, that he had something to do with the noted oilwell swindle known as the Prince Company in Petrolia. All he had to do with it was this-that he sent a telegram which cost him $50 to Sir JOHN ROSE warning him that the concern was a swindle, and asking him to put his friends on their guard, which he did, and he referred the Mail and all others who were circulating such stories to Sir JOHN ROSE or the banking firm with which he was con- | nected, for proof of the fact, that he saved his own friend Sir JOHN ROSE-for he had always been a personal friendand saved all with whom he came in contact on the Stock Exchange from losing heavily by that concern, which he was now accused of being connected with. In regard to the statement as to a relative of his having been employed to purchase rails, he desired to state to the House that no relative of his had been employed for any purpose good, bad, or indifferent in connection with any Government work, or anything approaching a Government work. Since he had been in charge of the Public Works Department he had never even opened a tender; all tenders were opened Hon. Mr. Mackenzie. by the principal officer of the Department. He never looked upon them in any way whatever until a report was made to him as to which was the lowest, and the lowest was invariably accepted as soon as the contractor furnished security; and when the contractor was not able to do so the officer of the Department passed in regular gradation down through the tenders until one was reached and the contract closed. He hoped he would not again be attacked directly or indirectly in connection with that matter, but whenever any member supposed that there was the slightest ground for imputation on the conduct of himself or of any of his colleagues let them at once ask for a committee of the House, and they could have their own committee. Of course he quite admitted that the hon. member for Cumberland did not make any personal charge, but the hon. member would also admit that it was necessary to refer to expressions used by him in referBefore leaving that ence to this matter. point he would tell the hon. member and the House that the only person whose advice he had acted on was Mr. SANDFORD FLEMING as Chief Engineer, and he would give the reasons why he adhered to that advice. The hon. member stated in his speech the other evening that the distance from Red River to Lake Nipegon was 416 miles. It was quite true that the distance to the upper end of Lake Ellen was 416 miles; but the distance to Red Rock, to which the road would have to go, was 426 miles, and the distance from Koninistiguia River to Red River was only 377 miles. If the road were built to Nipegon it would have to be a railroad all the way from Red River, there being no stretches of water in the intervals which could be used for transport purposes. By constructing a line from Fort William to Lake Shebandowan we at once obtain possession of a navigable route; no doubt it was a long circuit, but it was a navigable route in the summer season, by constructing 45 miles of railway to Lake Shebandowan, in a direct line from this point, and passing Sturgeon Falls at the east end of Rainy Lake, we make nearly a direct line from the Falls to Rat Portage. So we are on a line with respect to which we can construct a railroad all the way, if we like; or we can connect with the line that would pass Lake Nipegon 70 miles from Fort William. The object the Government had in view in use Hon. Mr. BLAKE said he did not mean to make that statement, nor did he think he did make it. adopting their scheme on the advice tion at Thunder Bay was a change of of the Chief Engineer, was to obtain policy from that indicated by the hor. the most favorable port on Lake Su- Premier last year. perior. Now, whether Nipegon Bay or Thunder Bay was the most favorable was no doubt a matter of opinion; but there could be no question of this fact that the mouth of the Koninistiguia River was the only place where we would be enabled to use the navigation of Lake Shebandowan, Rainy Lake, and Lake of the Woods. If we proceeded to build from Lake Nipegon we would have 426 miles of road to build before we could use a single yard of it for through traffic-the entire road must be constructed. By adopting the other line we could 45 miles at the Lake Superior end and 100 miles at the other end, that was from Rat Portage west to Red River, and have during the summer a navigable route all the rest of the distance by slightly improving the portages and building a lock at Fort St. Francis. The object which the Government and the House had in view last year when this project was tolerably well explained, was to get into that western country as soon as possible, and further to construct lengths of railway that would enable us to attain that object in the first place. He had, therefore, no reason to believe he would differ from him in opinion now, but would approve the policy the Government had adopted. The Government had no intention of building the road for Nipissing or Nipegon, or Thunder Bay, as the case might be, for some years to come. That would depend entirely upon what might be developed in the future. He did not think it was necessary for him to say more on that point, unless some members might choose to ask him some question. The hon. member for Cumberland had alluded to his position being supported by the hon. member for South Bruce. He asked that hon. member to state if such was the fact. Hon. Mr. BLAKE said he did not hear the observation of the hon. member for Cumberland. Hon. Mr. TUPPER said his statement was sustained by the speech of the hon. member for South Bruce, in which he stated that the policy of making a connec Hon. Mr. Mackenzie. He Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said he was satisfied that the hon. member for South Bruce would never back up the hon. So member for Cumberland in his views. far as constructing a line of railway from east to west, he said now, as he said last year, that the route from Nipegon was the If we were to shortest from east to west. diverge from the head of Black Bay, across the ridge that separates it from Thunder Bay, and pass along to Fort William, the line would be from 30 to 40 miles longer than if it should pass direct from Nipissing, past Nipegon and straight on to the crossing of the Winnipeg River at Rat Portage. He never denied that, and he did not deny it now. But he said, if we had commenced at Lake Nipegon we would have to build 426 miles before we could use one mile, while by beginning at Fort William and building 145 miles we would bring the territory within three or four days travel of the waters of Lake Superior. believed hon. gentlemen opposite contemplated, when their project was brought down, not going to Nipegon at all. proposed to carry the line north of that point, and construct a branch 120 miles When the hon. long to Thunder Bay. member for Cumberland charged him, as he had charged him, with making the expenditure on the road from Koninistiguia River to Lake Shebandowan altogether outside of the Pacific Railway scheme, he said that for which he had no reason or justification. With respect to the branch line from French River east for a distance of 85 miles, it was expressly provided for by the Act of last session, and the Government were simply carrying out the law of the land in relation to that matter. With respect to the comments made by the hon. member for Cumberland, and of the Opposition Press as to the tenders for the construction of the line to the mouth of French River, he had only to say that tenders were advertised for in the usual way, during a period of from six to eight weeks. The tenders were opened by the officers of the depart He one |