the assimilation of the laws of all the Provinces except Quebec. The motion was carried. QUEBEC TRINITY HOUSE. The House went into Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions with respect to the powers and authorities of the Trinity House of Quebec. The resolutions were reported. SUPERVISOR OF CULLERS' OFFICE. Hon. Mr. GEOFFRION moved the second reading of Bill to amend the Act respecting the culling of timber. Mr. CURRIER hoped the Government would give some explanations as to why this Bill was brought into this House. For his part he was not aware that any pressure had been brought to bear on the House to change this law. Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said the hon. gentleman was mistaken. In fact, if the hon. member had not himself mentioned the matter, the hon. member for South Renfrew had, and the Government had been importuned to make a change in the law. It was proposed by a special committee on the subject that the Government should take the matter into their own hands. Mr. CURRIER said a change had been recommended, but he happened to be in a minority on that committee. There were some features of this Bill which he approved of, and others which he did not. For instance, it would be very objectionable to make the culling or measuring of all timber compulsory. That should be left out. Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said the only desire of the Government was to make the Bill as perfect as possible. It could be read a second time and referred to committee, where suggestions would be considered. The Bill was read a second time and referred to Committee of the Whole, Mr. PELLETIER in the chair. On the motion for the adoption of the first clause, Mr. ROCHESTER said he considered the clauses of the old Bill which it was proposed to strike out were far more satisfactory than those it was proposed to substitute for them, and he therefore moved that the following sections of the Bill before the Committee be struck out, viz:-"Clauses 5, 6. 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, Hɔn. Mr. Pourzier. 18, 19, 20, 24, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, and 40, together with all such parts of the Bill as are inconsistent with the provisions of the said Act hereby repealed," The Cullers Act of the present day, with some very slight alterations, was all that the trade required. This Bill proposed to go into culling all kinds of timber and sawn lumber. The previous Act made provision for the culling of square timber and deals, but it did not make provision for the culling of boards or sawn lumber; and he was satisfied that so far as the trade with the United States and South America was concerned, no such provision was necessary, the trade regulating itself in that respect. Individuals came here to purchase their lumber and they generally sent men during the time of the shipping of that lumber to see that it was culled according to bargain. It regulated itself in that way. He thought it would be wrong in the House to step in and make new laws and regulations which would involve great expense and inconvenience without being any benefit to the trade. There was one amendment which he thought the trade asked from the House. According to the provisions of the old Act a certain number of cullers were appointed to act under a superviser. A man arrived in Quebec with his raft and applied to the cullers to have it measured. He had to wait until a certain culler's turn before it could be done. It so happened that more than double the number that were really required to perform this service were employed, and the trade thought that it was a great injustice that they should have to pay for the support of SO many useless hands. To remedy this was the only change that was asked, and so far as sawn lumber was concerned, he had not heard that any amendment whatever was required. It would be time enough for the House to appoint cullers for that class of timber when the trade asked for it. He read the clause on this subject which he proposed to strike out, and also the succeeding clauses, and declared that he did not see that there was any reason for changing the old provisions. In that connection he remarked that the gentleman who superintended the Department of Inland Revenue under the Ministry was one with whom he (Mr. ROCHESTER) had had a good deal to do. He was fully aware of the ability of that gentleman, but he noticed that in all the acts with which he had anything to do he invariably inserted a provision which enabled him to make such rules and regulations as he thought fit. Gentlemen in the distillery and brewery business throughout the Dominion, and those engaged generally in the manufacture of spirits, had had ample experience of his despotism. Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said the hon. gentleman must confine himself to the merits of this Bill, and not to the demerits of the Inland Revenue Act. Mr. ROCHESTER said the references he had made were made with a view to show that those engaged in the sawn lumber trade felt keenly on this subject, and were very desirous that they should not be subjected to the tyranny of the individual referred to. He spoke feelingly on the subject himself, from the fact that he had a good deal to do with him. Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE objected to hon. members making general charges against Government officers, and asked the hon. gentleman (Mr. ROCHESTER) if he had any specific charge to make, to bring it forward in the proper way. The principle of the Bill was this-the cullers were made a department of the Inland Revenue office, and they would be managed under the entire supervision of the Minister of Inland Revenue. He understood the 13th clause of the Act was strongly objected to, and if so the Government would be glad to consider any amendment in regard to that, as well as any other section. Mr. ROCHESTER hoped the Committee would do away with all the clauses that related to sawn lumber, and left the Act so as to reduce the number of cullers from sixty to ten or twenty.. ON CLAUSE IV., Hon. Mr. GEOFFRION, in reply to Mr. CURRIER, said that the Department would make regulations for the appointment of officers and the Government would be responsible for the appointments. The intention of the Government was to appoint in future only cullers who were qualified to cull all kinds of timber. In reply to Mr. MCDOUGALL (Renfrew), Hon. Mr. GEOFFRION said the number of cullers being at present unnecessarily large, it was proposed to reduce it, and Mr. Rochester. the Government took power to give certain pensions to those who retire. The Governor in Council could decide the amount of.compensation to be paid. Mr. CURRIER maintained that any men who passed an examination in culling should be licensed as cullers, no matter how they were employed. Hon. Mr. GEOFFRION, in reply, said it was important that we should retain the confidence of the English and foreign buyers. If the licensing system as proposed were put in force, every lumberman would have one of his men qualifying himself to obtain a license, and consequently the culling would prove practically useless. Mr. CURRIER said he would give every culler a license when he passed an examination, and only the best and most impartial would find employment, while those who were inefficient from any cause would have to fall out and adopt some other occupation for a living. This system existed in the United States at Albany, where there was more lumber shipped and sold than at Quebec, and the difference between that system and ours was that the latter would be double the expense to the trade. There would probably be 25 or 30 cullers on the list at $1,000 each, but ten or twelve good men would be sufficient at the same salary, and thus the expense could be reduced one-half. Mr. J. L. McDOUGALL (S. Renfrew) said he, believed in the fee system, and that the cullers should be employed by rotation, as men would almost invariably become cullers when their salary did not depend upon the work done. He did not think there would be any trouble about incorrect or dishonest measurements, as people when buying always measured sufficient to give them a test of the quantity. There were some cullers who never left the office because they were too old, and they had to send others to do the work for them, and some who through drink could not attend to their business. Hon. Mr. CAUCHON said the intention was to get rid of inefficient men and then compel the remainder to master the business, and thus reduce the expense of the service. Whether they ought to be placed upon salaries or fees was another question; but they ought to be paid reasonably. There were preferences in culling, as some first-class men could make no more than $200 a year, while lumber. Any lumberman could employ others would earn $2,000 or $3,000. | whatever surveyor he pleased, and his. Merchants showed this preference to men measurement was received as a certificate who would come up the river in winter not only of the amount but also of the and measure for them, and when the quality of the lumber. He could quite timber was sent down they received understand the reason why a gentleman further favors. He thought the system, who brought a raft of timber to market as it now existed, ought to be abolished. might not be disposed to take any culler Mr.TREMBLAY dit-Jeformais partie who might turn up under the rotation sysdu Comité chargé, l'année dernière, de s'occu- tem. The trade might consider one-third per de la question maintenant soumise à or one-half of the cullers unfit for their cette Chambre La majorité des membres duties. It was the same with the pilots, Comité, après un examen attentif, en est du of whom there were some two hundred below venu à la conclusion qu'un changement Quebec. Ask any shipowner how he would était absolument nécessaire, et je crois que like to be compelled to take any pilot who le rapport du Comité est dans le sens de la came, and he would say he would prefer to mesure préparée par le Ministre de l'Inté- pay four times as much and be allowed to rieur. Comme l'a fait remarquer le député select a man in whom he had confidence. de Québec Centre, il a été prouvé que des It might be the same with lumbermen who colleurs de la plus haute capacité gagnaient desired to employ men of some standing de $200 à $300 tandis que d'autres réali- in the class to which they belonged. He saient jusqu'à $3,000 par saison. Le fait could quite understand the objection taken. est que plusieurs de ces derniers allant by the hon. member for Ottawa who detravailler dans les chantiers pendant l'hiver sired to get thoroughly reliable and moyennant des gages peu élevés, ont l'a- efficient cullers, whose certificates could be vantage d'être choisis de préférence par depended upon. The weeding out of 26 ceux qui les ont employés pendant l'hiver. worthless cullers and retaining of 20 good Les propriétaires doivent certainement men was an improvement, but it was avoir de bonnes raisons pour retarder, desirable that the cullers retained should be comme la chose a été prouvée, pendant 7 à men of character and reputation. 8 jours, le mesurage de leur bois, afin d'avoir un colleur de leur choix. Dans l'intérêt du commerce de bois, le gouvernement doit protéger non-seulement le producteur ou le vendeur, mais aussi l'acheteur. L'acheteur venant de l'Angleterre ou de la France, doit trouver pour le marché les garanties nécessaires sur la quantité et la qualité du bois qu'il achète. Il en est de cette classe de commerçants comme des autres classes. Le Gouvernement nomme des inspecteurs de farine et de lard non pas tant dans l'intérêt du vendeur que dans l'intérêt de l'acheteur qui a le plus besoin de protection quant au poids et à la qualité. J'espère donc que la mesure de l'honorable Ministre du Revenu de l'Intérieur rencontrera l'approbation de la Chambre. Hon. Mr. MITCHELL said he would not oppose the Bill; neither would he enter into the question whether payment by salary or payment by fees was the better mode, but he would give his own experience in relation to what the system of culling was in other ports than Quebec. In the lower ports there were surveyors of lumber who not only measured but also classified the Hon. Mr. Cauchon. Mr. CURRIER hoped the sixth clause would not be insisted upon. Hon. Mr. GEOFFRION said it was the very principle of the Bill. The Government could not limit the number of cullers. They would assume the responsibility of employing a sufficient number to do the work. Mr. HAGAR said in Montreal and Sorel there were only two cullers who measured 4,000,000 feet, annually, and measured it satisfactorily. In Quebec they averaged between 300,000 and 400,000 feet for each culler. The clause was passed. Mr. CURRIER asked if the stamping of initials to denote the quality, applied only to square timber. Hon. Mr. GEOFFRION said it applied to square timber only. Mr. CURRIER said the clause should. specify that. The clause was passed. On the 12th clause, Mr. CURRIER said he did not see how it was possible to carry out this pro. vision, because in shipping lumber to foreign countries it was impossible to say whether it came from Ontario or Quebec. Mr. McDOUGALL said this clause would refer to square timber altogether because the duty that was payable on account of deals was paid on the logs and not on the timber. Mr. CURRIER-Then the word" lumber" should be struck out. Hon. Mr. GEOFFRION promised to make the amendment. The clause was passed. Mr. CURRIER said this clause should be struck out. It would never do to make culling compulsory. Mr. McDOUGALL said he had a telegram from the Quebec Board of Trade against it. Hon. Mr. GEOFFRION said he would consider the matter and make such amendments as seemed advisable on the third reading. M. TREMBLAY dit : La dernière partie de la 13ème clause, fixe à la Pointe Est de l'Isle d'Orléans, la limite où se rendront, en bas de Québec, les colleurs chargés en vertu du Bill actuel d'inspecter les bois d'exportation. Je pense que l'hon. Ministre du Revenu de l'Intérieur, n'aura pas d'objection à retrancher cette partie de la clause, afin de donner aux commerçants de bois de St. Thomas, par exemple, ou de Rimouski, et aux propriétaires des autres chantiers sur les côtes du St. Laurent et ailleurs, l'avantage d'avoir des colleurs commissionés, lorsqu'ils en auront sbeoin. En laissant la clause telle qu'elle est le Gouvernement se trouverait dans l'impossibilité d'envoyer un seul colleur plus bas que la Pointe Est de l'Isle d'Orléans, ce qui pourrait nuire gravement dans certain cas aux intérêts du commerce de bois dans cette partie de la Province de Québec. Hon. M. GEOFFRION :—Si la clause toute entière n'est pas retranchée, je comprends qu'ils sera nécessaire d'en modifier la dernière partie dans le sens indiqué par le député de Charlevoix, afin de procurer à tous les commerçants de bois de cette partie du pays de se servir des colleurs sous le contrôle du Gouvernement. The clause was passed, and the Committee rose and reported the Bill. THE CIVIL SERVICE. The House went into Committee to consider certain proposed resolutions to Mr. Currier. increase the salaries of the Civil Service of Canada as provided in the "Act respecting the Civil Service of Canada."-Mr. SCATCHERD in the chair. Hon. Mr. CARTWRIGHT said the details of these resolutions would be found in the Bill now in the hands of hon. gentlemen. They stated in the first place that the sum to be expended under this Act was not more collectively than had been granted for the past two years to the parties affected. There was some difference in the amount the classes received. The junior classes received something more and the senior something less. The only other alteration on the present Civil Service Act was to divide the Chief Clerks into two grades—the first and second grades. Mr. YOUNG said he was very glad to hear the explanation of his hon. friend the Minister of Finance, because he was aware that some misconception existed in regard to this subject. The manner in which the resolutions were placed on the notice paper permitted the inference that a considerable increase was being made in the salaries of the officers of the Civil Service. As he (Mr. YOUNG) understood the hon. gentleman, there was in the main no material increase over the amount formerly paid in the way of salaries and bonuses. Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE—A decrease. Hon. Mr. CARTWRIGHT said that formerly $70,000 had been voted to regulate the salaries, but the sum distributed in future would not be equal to that. Mr. YOUNG said he had turned up the former Act and found that the salaries of first, second and third class clerks would generally be the same as the amount they now received between bonus and salary before. In some cases it would be a little less. In regard to the deputy heads, there would be an increase of some $400. At present their salaries were fixed at $3,200 ; under the Bill before the House they would be fixed at $3,600. He understood, however, that the deputies had heretofore received no part of bonus. He (Mr. YOUNG) was glad that the explanation of his hon. friend had been given, because he knew there was a feeling in the country from the way in which the resolutions were framed that there was to be a general increase in salaries. He was himself of opinion that the members of the Civil Service should be well paid, but that no greater number should be employed At the same | instead of $460 as heretofore. Clerks of con- the first grade would receive $50 more. When they had attained their maximum they would receive $2,800. than was necessary. Hon. Mr. POPE said his hon. friend was mistaken when he believed that the deputy heads had not shared in the bonus. They had their salaries increased from $2,600 to $3,200, so that they participated very largely indeed. Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE quoted the resolutions passed in 1873 to show that while some of the deputies were receiving $4,000 before that time, none received less than $3,200. At the present time some three of them received about $4,000. Hon. Mr. MITCHELL said so far as he remembered only the deputy of the Minister of Public Works was receiving the regular salary of $4,000. The Auditor General, between salary and allowances, had about $4,000. He would like to ask the Minister of Finance some questions with relation to the meaning of some portions of the resolutions. He desired to ask whether any clerk would under the Bill based on these resolutions receive less than he had been paid during the last two years, adding salary and bonus together. Hon. Mr. CARTWRIGHT said the junior second class clerks would receive a little less. For example a clerk who was receiving at present $805, salary and bonus added, would under this Act receive $800, which, as the hon. gentleman would see, was a little less. In the succeeding class the reduction would be proportionately a little more. To a certain extent the same rule would apply to the senior second class. Third class clerks would be paid more than they had received hitherto. Their salaries would be $500 Mr. Young. Hon. Mr. MITCHELL inquired at what date the new rate was to come in force. Hon. Mr. CARTWRIGHT The first of July, 1875. It would not have been convenient to apply it from the beginning of the year, because the bonuses have already been begun to be distributed. Hon. Mr. MITCHELL inquired the classes so as to define anew the rank whether it was the intention to re-organize the classes so as to define anew the rank of each clerk, or whether they wonld continue to take rank as at present. Hon. Mr. CARTWRIGHT said it was intended to classify them according to length of service. Of course the hon. gentleman was aware that the Civil Service Act had not been rigidly adhered to in number of clerks had been placed in the that respect in certain cases, and that a more advanced classes out of the regular order. The Government would not in these cases give any increase until the clerks in question had attained the maxi mum of their class. Of course the head of the Department must be satisfied of the efficiency of the clerk whose salary was in question before the increase was recommended. Hon. Mr. MITCHELL inquired whether a clerk or officer, having served four years, would under the new scheme, be entitled to the maximum rate at once, or whether he would have to commence anew and gradually arrive at it. Hon. Mr. CARTWRIGHT said they had all received $50 per annum increase from year to year, and he did not think there was any exception to this rule. The operation of this Act would certainly not be to place them in a worse position than they were before. Taking them as a whole, they would remain substantially in the position they were at present. Hon. Mr. HOLTON said he observed his hon. friend (Mr. CARTWRIGHT) had stated that there would be some reduction upon the $70,000 voted for bonuses during the last two years. Practically, however, that vote was reduced by $7,500, which had been appropriated to officers of the House. He desired his hon. friend (Mr. CARTWRIGHT) to say whether he pro |