But

Ferguson,

Flesher,
Fraser,
Gaudet,
Gill,
Gordon,
Hagar,
Haggart,
Harwood,
Higginbotham,
Jones (Leeds),
Kirkpatrick,
Lanthier,
Little,

Aylmer,
Barthe,
Béchard,
Biggar,
Blackburn,
Blain,
Borron,
Bourassa,
Bowman,
Brown,
Buell,

purposes, whereas it was to the interest of | Farrow,
Canada that land should be occupied and
settled. It had always been contended by
the hon. gentlemen now sitting on the
Treasury Benches that it was contrary to
correct principles to give out contracts for
building railways until the necessary sur-
veys had been completed. This was one
of the charges brought against the late
Government that they had entered into
contracts for the building of the Pacific Rail-
way without knowing where the railway was
going to run, or what it would cost.
the hon. members themselves were now
violating the principle for which they had
contended when in opposition, because Appleby,
both in the case of the railway provided
for by the Bill, and also in that of the
Georgian Bay Branch, there had been no
proper surveys carried out. In the latter
case one or two surveyors had walked over
the line, but they could not tell within
several miles where the road would be
located. He was an advocate for con-
structing the Pacific Railway from ocean
to ocean, as a work in the interest of the
country; but he was entirely opposed to
it if it was to be built, owned and con-
trolled by a company, because that was
locking up lands of sufficient magnitude to
comprise kingdoms. Already, fault was
found on the ground that the Canada
Central Company would exercise
land monopoly, but that would be as
nothing compared with the monopoly that
would be created in the Pacific Railway
He moved in amendment,
·Company.
seconded by Mr. STEVENSON "That this
Bill be not now read a second time, but
that it be read a second time this day
three months.".

a

The amendment was negatived on the following division :

Bunster,

Burpee (St. John),
Cartwright,
Casey,
Casgrain,
Cauchon,
Cheval,
Church,
Cockbum,
Cushing,
Davies,
DeCosmos,
Delorme,
De St. Georges,
De Veber,

Dymond,

Ferris,
Fiset,
Fleming,
Flynn,

Forbes,

Fournier,

Fréchette,

The House went into Committee of the Whole, Mr. YOUNG in the chair.

Mr. Wallace.

Vail,
Wilkes,
Wood,

Wright (Ottawa),

Wright (Pontiac),
Young-101.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER said although this road from Esquimault to Nainimo was outside the obligations entered into by the late Government with British Columbia, he regarded it as an effort made in good faith to arrange for the redemption, as far as possible, of pledges made with British Columbia, and such being the case he felt obliged to give what support he could toward carrying out those arrangements. He was driven to the conclusion that no surveys were made on this line, and that the Government were entirely in the dark at this moment as to the information which on it was absolutely necessary that contracts should be based. The Government would be obliged to supply the means for building this road-means which the hon. member for South Bruce would find he had altogether under-rated. The Bill provides that the parties obtaining the contract should have a subsidy of land of fair average quality, along the line of the Pacific Railway or in some other part of the Dominion where the Government owned public lands. It would be seen at a glance that it was not the intention of the Government to give lands on Vancouver Island, because the Esquimault and Nanaimo Railroad was not a part of the Pacific Railroad.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER contended that it was impossible in the present state of information in regard to the route, to furnish the necessary information as to the amount of work required to be done and which the contractor must be furnished with in order to get the contract taken at the lowest rate and the least risk.

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE-If it will be impossible then it will not be let. I pledge myself to the House that until it is definitely known the contract will not be let.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER said the hon. gentleman had passed a Bill through Parliament last session giving the Government the same power they asked for in this Bill, and the Government let the contract without the consent of Parliament and without having a survey of the line. With Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE explained such facts before the House and with the inthat the Government believing that the formation that the survey could not be lands between Nanaimo and Esquimault completed before midsummer there was were mostly valuable mineral lands, were no necessity for taking this power asked not willing to give 20,000 acres of them to a for. The engagement with the Imperial contractor. They had therefore, taken power Government and British Columbia would to give lands wherever they pleased along be honorably and fairly redeemed to the the line of the Pacific Railway or else- letter, as well as in the spirit if the Govwhere. This clause was prepared explicit-ernment would provide for letting conly to prevent speculators getting hold of most valuable mineral lands under the guise of contractors. With reference to the surveys, there had been a preliminary survey, that is, engineers had gone along the coast to ascertain the general lie of the land and the points at which water could easily be touched. He proposed within a few days to have a trial survey made, which would be completed by midsummer when steps would immediately be taken to put the line under contract.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER said the Government were absolutely bound to constructhis line immediately. Every contractor knew that, and also knew it would cost four times as much to do the work in British Columbia than it would in any Hon. Mr. Tupper.

tracts subject to the approval of Parliament, and for this reason, the very moment the location of the road was commenced the construction was also begun. It was so in the case of the Intercolonial Railway. The late Government regarded the work of construction as commenced when they proceeded to locate the line." He therefore moved in amendment to the 8th sub-section of the 9th clause that the following words be added :-" Provided always that any such contract shall have the previous approval of Parliament."

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said he could assent to nothing that would place the Government in such a position as woula enable either British Columbia or the Imperial Government to impugn their good

themselves. That, he apprehended, would I were determined to proceed as rapidly as

possible with the fulfilment of this part of their obligation. It might be that in some details the Bill might be improved, and if this could be shown he would willingly make any modification, but he could not consent to change the principle of the measure.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER said the hon. gentleman had given no answer to the point he had raised, namely, that the location of the road was a commencement of the work; and that therefore in order to keep good faith it was only necessary to proceed with the location of the line before next session.

be keeping good faith. He knew that the hon. gentleman had made his remarks without looking at that section of the Bill, and if he had done so he would have saved himself a somewhat awkward speech. The hon. gentleman and his late colleague voted for the second reading of the Bill as they were bound to do. The fact was that the extraordinary and imprudent arrangement made by the late Government with British Columbia, was one that he (Mr. MACKENZIE) had opposed as long as it was possible to oppose it. When he assumed the leadership of the Government he had to deal with this subject. He had to allay feelings of discontent and inquiet- Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE wished to ask ude in that Province, and to do what he one question-would the right hon. leader could to restore that feeling between the of the Opposition say that the commencing Province and the rest of the Dominion of a survey was the commencement of the which was essential to the continuation of construction of the road, within the terms: the Union. Finding themselves in that of the agreement with British Columbia of position, the Government had to make the 1872. He was perfectly aware that the best arrangement possible under the cir- hon. gentleman had sent a telegram somecumstances. They did their best to econo- | thing to that effect, but it was well known mize the public funds, and at the same that the Government of British Columbia time to give reasonable satisfaction to those refused to recognize that as a commencewith a home the late Administration had ment of the road. Now he would like to made a special agreement. But supposing get the legal opinion-not the Parliamenthat the hon. gentleman's argument was tary opinion-of the hon. gentleman upon conclusive, which it was not, how would the point as to whether the beginning of a it apply to those who made a bargain survey was the commencement of the conto build the entire road in ten years? struction of the line. Supposing such a combination were formed under that bargain, how could faith have been kept? Of course, we know it was never intended to keep faith, because that was impossible, and every member of the then Administration and Parliament knew it was impossible to keep faith. He did not propose to do anything but what he believed they could do, and he had not proposed to do anything but what he believed to be within the preamble of the Bill of last session, which was to the effect that the taxation of the people as it was when the original bargain was made should not be increased. It would be found that he so informed the Imperial Government in the last despatch sent on this subject. Believing that they would be able to keep their obligation with the public not to increase the taxation, and at the same time restore harmony between British Columbia and the rest of the Dominion, they had adopted the course they did, and they had introduced this Bill as an evidance that they Hon. Mr. Mackenzie.

Sir JOHN MACDONALD said he had no doubt that a location survey was as much a commencement of the construction of the railway as the actual breaking of the ground; but he would not consider that preliminary surveys were the commencement of construction.

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said that the: hon. gentleman when he was leader of the Government had applied to have the land on Vancouver Island set apart for the railway upon the ground that the survey had commenced. The Local Government. refused the application, and the gentleman made no further attempt to get the law carried out which he was bound to do if it were true that the beginning of a survey was legally the beginning of the construction of the line.

Sir JOHN A. MACDONALD said the circumstances were these:-The Government were informed that the lands of the Island were eagerly sought after by speculators and were afraid that the lands for the railway would be handed over to

other parties or pre-empted; and they | therefore applied for the conveyance of these lands to them by British Columbia. The answer of the British Columbia Government was that they would not convey them but would reserve them.

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE-They were bound to reserve them.

Sir JOHN A. MACDONALD-Only for two years. They claimed that the work was not commenced until the actual work of construction was begun, and they agreed, if the Government of Canada were afraid that at the end of two years the land would be gone, to reserve it. That was all the Government wished and, therefore, they agreed to that arrangement.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER said that he hoped that the First Minister having taken the legal opinion of the gentlemen of his own selection, he would now abide by that opinion. He was glad to have that point disposed of, because it was important. He was disposed to do anything towards assisting the First Minister to carry out in good faith the engagement of this country. But apart from all that he contended that the actual progress of the work would be advanced by the Government spending the whole of the ensuing season in procuring an exhaustive survey of the line. No man, who had the slightest knowledge of Railway construction, would deny that the utmost care should be taken in the location of the line, and even after all the care that could be bestowed upon it, it was frequently found that very large sums of money could be saved by making changes in the location as the road progressed. He held that if this plan was adopted no time would be lost. In the first place, if the Government carried out their own plan, tenders would have to be asked for. Now, as this work was 3,000 miles away from headquarters, and from the places where most of the large contractors live, it would be necessary that the Government should be in a position to lay before the parties who desired to tender the fullest information respecting the work that would be required of them. Even in the case of a railway that was at our doors, this was necessrry; but it was far more necessary in the case of a work at such a great distance away. The Government were, therefore, bound in the public interests to obtain the fullest information about the work before they asked for tenders.

Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald.

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE-They intend to so.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER-Then every per son familiar with railway construction must know that in view of the fact only an exploratory survey of this line has yet been made it will take the whole of nextseason to obtain the information which it... was necessary to have in order that contracts could be let at the lowest possible rates. It was quite true that this Bill contained a clause that the work might be undertaken by the Government, but if this were done there would be even a greater necessity for the Government to | obtain very full information before they commenced the construction of the road. Before he sat down he would remind the hon. gentleman from British Columbia. that there was no inconsistency in this matter. The contract in this case was different from those to which the Govern ment did not require the assent of Parlia ment. The original contract was one with regard to which the means which the company were asked to give were distinctly specified by Act of Parliament. There was therefore no inconsistency in requiring that the contract in this case, the amount of it being as yet entirely unknown, should be submitted to Parliament.

Mr. BUNSTER said he had been alt over the country through which this road would would pass. The gradients were easy, the roal would run from one good harbor to another and would have a traffic of three hundred thousand tons of coal per annum, which of itself would be sufficient to cover the working expenses.

Sir JOHN A. MACDONALD said the Premier had stated he expected to be in a position to ask for tenders by midsummer. That was very early, but supposing that were the case, and that after tenders were received they were such that the Government could not accept. The Gov ernment would then have to proceed, with the work themselves, but before doing so they must under the Bill submit it to public competition. He supposed at least six weeks would be given for the receiving of tenders in the first instance, then more time would have to be given for offering the work to public competition and the time for the meeting of Parliament again would be round before very little conld be done. Therefore no time would be lost if