MR. DYMOND: It was not returned to the Committee. The hon. gentleman is quite wrong in his statement as to the facts. As had been stated by an hon. member, | party now backing those hon. gentlethe Opposition did not ask for such men here, for the purpose of securing a Committees, they did not require finding different from that at which them; but they were willing to leave the Committee at first arrived. these charges to the great tribunal of MR. BLAKE: No, no. public opinion, and to accept the documents, such as they were, which had been dragged from the hon. gentlemen opposite, under Orders of the House. This was not the only evidence they had got. There was also a Committee appointed under the leadership of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Blake) in the Local House with regard to what was known as the Proton transaction in the county of Grey. The Committee met, took evidence and reported. The report sustained the charge; but the Hon. Mr. Blake sent the Committee back with the report. MR. BLAKE: No, no. MR. MCCARTHY: The hon. gentleman need not say no. I recollect the transaction very well. MR. BLAKE: I beg the hon. tleman's pardon; I did not send the report of the Committee back. MR. MCCARTHY said the Committee changed the report. Hon. gentlemen opposite might quibble about terms, but he was substantially right. This was what had then been done, and yet these hon. gentlemen here loudly proclaimed that everything should be sent before Committees. They had sufficient evidence as to the manner in which Committees had been conducted under the auspices of hon. gentlemen opposite to show that no fairness could be got from them. The hon. member for South Bruce said the evidence might be taken before a Comgen-mittee, but all the Opposition wanted and required was to test the wholecase before the people of this country with respect to this charge, and this they were willing to do. He would like to know whether it would not be an idle ceremony to go before a Committee to have the evidence which they already possessed taken over again. With reference to this Goderich Harbour matter, what did they find? They found that the Order in Council which * was made at the time made no reference to those facts, respecting which he thought he would not go too far, if he called them manufactured evidenceevidence which had been manufactured after the charge had been made throughout the country. Before the MR. MCCARTHY said he spoke from memory, and he might be incorrect as the hon. gentleman; but Mr. Mackenzie's name was mentioned; and if his recollection served him aright, the hon. member for South Bruce in the Huse MR. BLAKE: Mr. Mackenzie's name was mentioned as what? MR. MCCARTHY: As moving the sending back of the report. MR. BLAKE: The hon. gentleman is all wrong. MR. MCCARTHY: I am not wrong in substance. MR. BLAKE: You are all wrong. I can assure the hon. gentleman that this report was not dealt with at all while either myself or the hon. member for Lambton were members of the Local House. MR. MCCARTHY said he accepted the statement of the hon. gentleman. He was wrong perhaps as to that point; but what he meant to say was substantially the same thing, and this was that the report in question which was brought down upon that charge, was sent back to the Committee by the same matter had been mentioned in this Chamber at all, or brought before the attention of the House, the facts connected with it had substantially become public; and it was then known that this contract had been given to Mr. Moore, although he was not the lowest tenderer. It was known that Mr. Stirton had interfered. It was known that there had been an interview with the hon. member for South Bruce (Mr. Blake), and further-which had not yet appeared in the papers-that there had been an interview with the Hon. Mr. Brown with regard to this matter. The SIR, “OTTAWA, 22nd February, 1877. papers were before them, and if any- | $212.000; Moore, Clendenning and "With reference to the address carried yesterday, for papers in 'connection with the Goderich Harbour Contract, I have to request that the private letter which I wrote you on the 2nd January, 1874, before the tenders were received, and which was the only commuuication between us on that subject, may be included in the return. "I have, etc., "Your obedient servant, Innocent member for South Bruce. The hon. gentleman was so careful of The hon. gentleman was so careful of the high-handed manner of which they had heard so much, that he desired that this innocent letter-this letter which was perfectly well known to the public, this letter which had been proclaimed to the public, and was well known long before-should be sent down with the other papers. And they found this letter among those papers —childlike and bland, he might call it : "MY DEAR MACKENZIE, "David Moore, of Walkerton, asks me to inform you that he is about to tender for the Goderich Works, and I do so, accordingly. I told my friend Moore that an introduction was unnecessary, as you would let the work fairly, without respect of persons. "Yours truly, “EDWARD BLAKE." It had been proclaimed from the housetops, that this Government were going to do what was right, were going to give the contract to the lowest tenderer, that the corrupt system had been done away with, and that Mr. Moore did not require any introduction. The tenders were: Tolton, $182,000; George Neilson, about whom there was no explanation, $200,000; Ellis, | | Were they to accept the evidence of Mr. 斷 Young), or even the hon. member for | had been made in the country formu- MR. DYMOND: Let us try it. MR. MCCARTHY said he had not the slightest objection to try it. He simply, however, desired to draw attention to matters of importance in reference to the proposal to submit this matter to a Committee. He did not think it was incumbent on members of the Opposition to submit everything to a Committee. Whatever he had to say he would say to hon. gentlemen face to face, without being afraid to meet them. He did not think that he was bound to accept such evidence as that as conclusive proof of innocence, and he did not think he was bound to send such a case to a Committee when the House had enough before it to prove to every independent elector that this charge had been made out. He did not think that hon. gentlemen op: posite could be serious in saying that documentary papers brought down by the Government themselves were not to be treated as evidence. Some hon. gentlemen opposite had been so satisfied on the production of the papers that their seats were vacated that they resigned. The present Minister of Militia said and the late Minister of Militia did not wait for the report of a Committee before they resigned. In the Palen matter the charge was equally strong. It was easy for hon. gentlemen to say: Why do you not formulate your charges?" They had said that at the commencement of last Session, but at the end of the Session the members of the Opposition were to be ferocious; they had formulated charges too often; they had gone through the country making charges, but there was not one of those charges that was not brought to a test vote, and upon which hon. gentlemen would not have to answer to the people; and these charges the Opposition would have to substantiate before that im partial tribunal to which they would all, before long, have to appeal. MR. RYMAL said he was delighted with the course the discussion was taking. Some of the old fire that had well-nigh waned and nearly expired was beginning to manifest itself. He expected to see some charges which lated, although Committees did not seem to be in favour with hon. gentle. before the Session was over, they would men opposite; but, he expected that, feel it necessary to formulate the charges they had made. His hon. friend who had just sat down, the member for Cardwell, who had addressed the House in that lordly pomposity, grandiloquent swell, and terized him, had been rather severe on turkey-gobbler strut which charac some friends of the Government. It was crushing to have a man of his weight fall upon them. He (Mr. Rymal) had suffered somewhat in listening to him. He did not think the hon. gentleman was to be blamed for taking up needlessly the time of this House. If he remembered aright, a satirical writer, in one of the journals of Westtors at a Conservative pic-nic last ern Canada, when referring to the oraJohn Hillyard Cameron had fallen upon summer, said the mantle of the late his hon. friend, and that he (Mr. McCarthy) would furnish brains to the Conservative party in time to come. It appeared to him (Mr. Rymal) that It appeared to him that the hon. genthe mantle was too large for the child. tleman had accepted in good earnest ferred to, and thought the mantle of the the satirical writing which he had redeparted statesman had actually fallen on his shoulders. He did not appear to him (Mr. Rymal) to be cut out for a statesman. but surely the resemblance was not very He might be mistaken, great. He did not believe that, if the late John Hillyard Cameron could see his opinion, he would think the resemsuccessor, and be allowed to express an blance very remarkable. It was like Hyperion to a satyr; it was like mud to marble; or like a singed cat to a Bengal tiger. He asked the shade of the mighty departed to pardon what was almost a profanation in the comodious, but the one in which he had inparison-comparisons were somewhat dulged was ludicrous in the extreme. MR. ARCHIBALD moved the adjournment of the debate. Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned. House adjourned at Half-past On MR. CASGRAIN introduced a Bill (No. 36) To extend, in favour of George B. Burland, certain letters patent to a period of ten years. MR. MACKENZIE: I think that this is one of the Bills which ought to be explained even in its introduction. MR CASGRAIN said that the object of the Bill was briefly this: Some precedents in this relation already existed in this country, and one notably in England. The object of the Bill was to extend, in favour of Mr. Burland, the time for which he had obtained certain letters patent. Mr. Burland had gone to a heavy expense in order to carry out his undertaking, which was in the general interest of the public, as its effect was to prevent, in this country, the counterfeiting of bank notes. When the Bill came up for the second reading, he would be able more extensively to explain the intention of the Bill. MR. MACKENZIE: Of course, I do not intend to oppose the introduction of the Bill, but it is one of a class of Bills on which the House looks with a great deal of suspicion, as it relates to the conferring of rights beyond those which are conferred by the Order for resuming adjourned debate on Mr. Cartwright's proposed motion: "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, for the House to go again into Committee of Supply," read. MR. WALLACE said he trusted that the House would bear with him while he endeavoured to give his views on some of the points that had been raised in this discussion. He would endeavour to do so as briefly as possible. The hon. member for South Brant (Mr. Paterson) had taken the hon. member for Cardwell (Mr. McCarthy) to task, for dealing in figures, and using them unfairly; but he thought that, if the hon. gentleman (Mr. Paterson) had been inclined to do what was right himself, he would have put his figures more fairly before the House than he did. It was difficult to take figures in different sets, place them in different positions, and make them prove the same thing. The hon. member for Cardwell had presented the figures concerning the expenditure for the years 1872-3 and 1875-6, and, contrasting them, had brought about certain results; but when the hon. member for South Brant took the figures of 1873-4, and 1875-6, and contrasted them, he (Mr. Paterson) brought about very different results. Having done so, the hon. gentleman sought to lead the House to infer, and, through the House, desired the country to infer, that the hon. member for Cardwell had misrepresented the | Brant, that the hon. the Finance Minisfacts as shown by those figures. He ter had managed the finances of this (Mr. Wallace) did not put much faith country differently from his predecesin what was proved by figures. In the sors, but not in a way, he thought, to hands of a skilful manipulator- elicit the admiration of the people although it was said that figures could of this country, or of the hon. memnot lie-they might be made to prove bers of the House. Another difference whatever such a person wished; he, to which the hon. member (Mr. Patertherefore, would not deal largely in son) had referred was that, under the figures, but he should rather devote Administration of the right hon. the himself to the discussion of general member for Kingston, the expenprinciples. The hon. member for diture of this country had in South Brant had said he would seven years been increased ten submit for the consideration of millions of dollars; and the hon. the House and of the country gentleman went on to show that, under four unanswerable facts. One of these the Administration of the present unanswerable facts was that the hon. Government, the expenditure during the Finance Minister had managed the three years had only been increased finances of this country as they had $200,000. This was correct, but, adnever been managed before. The hon. mitting that this was the case, what did gentleman contented himself with that it prove? Did it prove that in the assertion, and did not go on to prove one case there was extravagance, and in what respect the hon. the Finance in the other case economy ? A Minister had acted differently from his greater expenditure did not constitute predecessors. He asked how did the extravagance; neither did a less exmanagement of this hon. gentleman penditure always constitute economy. differ from that of those who had He held that economy lay in a wise preceded him in that position? Had and judicious expenditure of money; that hon. gentleman adopted any differ- and a large expenditure might be more ent system of raising funds for carrying economical, in fact, and more in the on the business of the country? He ap interests of the country, than a small prehended that no one would say that expenditure might be. The hon. gensuch was the case. The hon. gentle- tleman did not tell the House, or the man either raised money in this in this people of this country, that, while this relation by borrowing from England increased expenditure was going on, or by increased taxation, and in this this Dominion was being added to by respect he apprehended that the hon. Provinces, and that, during the period gentleman did not differ in any way in whatever from his predecessors. Again, the hon. gentleman (Mr. Cartwright) had been obliged to come down and chronicle a deficit for this year; and, in this regard, he was pleased to say that the hon. gentleman did differ from his predecessors for a number of years past; and he did not think that this difference did any credit to the hon. the Finance Minister, or that it was such a difference that the country should feel grateful to the hon. gentleman for bringing it about. It was true that in the past we had had deficits; but, if he remembered rightly, we had not had one or two deficits so great as those which the hon. gentleman who now controlled the finances of this country had been obliged to submit to this House, and in this respect he agreed with the hon. the member for South question, the Government of the day had had to provide for the administration of Government in British Columbia, and in the NorthWest and Manitoba. All this, as a natural result, had added to the expenditure; and, in the year 1873-4, to which the hon. gentleman had referred as one of the years of large expenditure under the late Administration, the Province of Prince Edward Island was added to this Dominion. This, also, had necessarily added to the expenditure of the country, because it was not possible to take new territories into this Dominion, and to provide for giving postal facilities and other facilities for carrying on the commerce of the country, and for the Administration of Justice, without increasing the expenditure. And there was this remarkable difference between the expenditures of the |