ment were glad to have him take | ing evening, he moved that the House hold of the work. Anything that do now adjourn. it was possible for the Goverment to do to protect the workmen or those to whom the contractor was indebted, they were willing to do, but he did not know that it was in their power to do anything. Under the contract, a certain sum of money was to be paid to the contractor, and the Government paid it in monthly instalments on a certificate from the engineer. These payments were made subject, as a matter of course, to a reduction of 10 per cent., retained in the hands of the Government, but this 10 per cent. was usually advanced, to a greater or less extent, to enable contractors to get all the advantage they could of what money they were fairly entitled to, when that could safely be done. A considerable part of that 10 per cent. was advanced in that way to Mr. Tuck, as it was advanced to almost every contractor. The contracts provided that this might be done, and, as the Government were always desirous of aiding contractors as far as it was safe, in the public interest, to do so, some advance from that reserve fund in their hands was usually made, upon the recommendation of the engineer superintending the work. In this case they had not been aware that any parties wero in arrears until it became too late for the Government to retain any money in their hands. If they had, they would simply have had to retain it subject to actions that might be brought by the parties interested. MR. CAMPBELL said he had amended his motion, and would now move for all papers and correspondence in connection with the change of contractors for the enlarging of the St. Peter's Canal; also statement showing what funds are still in the hands of the Government, belonging to Mr. Tuck, the original contractor, and showing also, the time within which the contract is to be finished, and also a copy of the tender and contract under which the enlargement has been let. Motion, as amended, agreed to. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. MR. MACKENZIE said that, as they might expect a late sitting on the ensu SIR JOHN A. MACDONALD said he would ask the Government to allow the House an hour, on the following day, for motions for returns. If any objections were offered to the motions, they would not press for them. MR. MACKENZIE said he had no objection, if it would advance business in the least; but it certainly would not. He would consider the request before the next day. House adjourned at SIR JOHN A. MACDONALD: I only said, "more than half." You sec that we lose all to-morrow. MR. MACKENZIE: The position is simply this: So many motions have already been carried that the Departments are quite as full of work as they possibly could be, and it would serve no purpose, except to lose the time of the Government to-day, to proceed with those notices now. I think that the hon. gentleman ought not to expect it. SIR JOHN A. MACDONALD: Very well; all right. MR. MACKENZIE: But I promise him that, on Monday next, if necessary at all, I shall afford him every facility, for a good portion of the day, in taking up these notices. MR. HOLTON: Besides, if the debate closes early to-night, we can take up notices of motion before we adjourn. SUPPLY-THE BUDGET. ADJOURNED DEBATE Order for resuming the debate on Mr. Cartwright's proposed motion: "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair for the House to go again into Committee of Supply," read. MR. PLUMB said that, when the House adjourned on Friday evening, he was about to proceed with the debate which then occupied its attention. Before he would attempt to deal with the general question, which would no doubt interest the House during the whole of the discussion that would take place on the speech of his hon. friend the Minister of Finance, he would briefly advert to statements which had been made-though perhaps these were not entirely relevant to the question, by the hon. gentlemen who had spoken on the other side since his hon. friend (Mr. Cartwright) addressed the House; and he would take them in reverse order, as they would then, perhaps, be fresher in the minds of hon. members, and as hon. members might then, perhaps, more readily apprehend what he had to say on the subject. The hon. member who preceded him—the hon. member for Centre Toronto (Mr. Mac donald), for whose opinions, as a business man, he had the highest respect, and who, personally, knew the esteem with which he (Mr. Plumb) regarded him-had given them one of those addresses which it was always pleasant to hear in the House, and which was characterized by that gentleness and persuasiveness of manner by which the hon. gentleman always attracted, took, and kept the ear of the House; and he regretted that he must, on this occasion, differ in toto cœlo from the hon. gentleman, with regard to the arguments which he (Mr. Macdonald) had advanced, and the conclusions which he had reached. His hon. friend had spoken well; but he had spoken from a peculiar standpoint. His hon. friend was largely engaged in commerce; he had been an eminent and successful example of what could be done in Canada by unaided industry and indomitable perseverance; but, throughout his whole career, he (Mr. Macdonald) had taken one single line; and, when he argued upon commercial subjects, upon financial subjects, and upon subjects of political economy, he (Mr. Plumb) could not but suppose that the hon. gentleman's views were, to a certain extent, biassed by the peculiar interests which he so worthily represented. He could not blame the hon. gentleman for this, or blame him for presenting his arguments to the House in the form which they would naturally take from his own personal standpoint, and from his personal predilections. That hon. gentleman had told them, in the first place, that he would give them the real causes, generally speaking, for which the sufferings we were enduring from the commercial depression which, it could not be denied, existed in this country; which, it could not be denied, still existed in the greatest severity, and which it might now be the policy, and he thought it was the policy, of hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House to treat lightly as a passing cloud, and to say that it was longer preying upon the very vitals of the community In fact, that was hon. friend the statement of his the Finance Minister last year, who, instead of being a croaking prophet of enormous no evil, as he was when he (Mr. Cart- | wright) took the office of Finance Minister, was then airy, cheerful and hopeful, stating that we had passed over the worst of the storm, and that the country, though it still felt the effects of the ground-swell, was coming into smoother water. His hon. friend from Centre Toronto took, he (Mr. Plumb) was bound to say, with all respect to him, an empirical view of the situation. The causes of the depression lay deeper and were more lasting and enduring than any he (Mr. Macdonald) had referred to They lay in great changes in the general condition of the commercial and financial wor d. They did not lie in the question whether Canada imported a few million dollars' worth of goods more or less, or made a few million dollars' worth, more or less, of bad debts. They did not lie in the fact that the importers of Canada, always excepting his hon. friend, filled their warehouses with the merchandise of England and the United States, which they forced upon people | who were not competent to conduct business and incompetent to pay for their purchases; or gave such persons long credits, and placed them in positions to compete with each other and with sound merchants in the most injurious manner, all of which was cal: ulated to hurry this country into bankruptcy. These were among the causes, but they were slight causes, as his hon. friend would at once recognize. He had, with amazement, looked over the statements which from time to time appeared in the newspapers in advertisements with regard to insolvent estates; and he had thus seen that men were trading all over the country on no capital, and when the assignee took hold of their estates, cases were found where whole families were probably living out of a business involving a stock of $5,000 or $6,000, or even less. And he had, consequently. been amazed that it was not seen at once that these men could not carry on a successful business on such capital. This was one of the causes of the de pression, and it was an immediate cause; it was a cause that was before them all the time. They knew what it was; but the causes of this great depression, which were worthy of the examination of the hon. the Finance Minister of Canada, and which were of national importance or national consequence, were deeper and farther reaching; and he ventured to say that they would continue far longer than by any of them would desire to imagine that they could continue. The Opposition were charged with wishing to detain the spectre of hard times for their own benefit; but could it be possible that gentlemen were so far prejudiced by party spirit that they could imagine that any man having the interests of Canada at heart would desire for a moment to interrupt the career of her prosperity. It was unworthy even of the most bitter partizan, or of the most unscrupulous politician to make any assertion of the kind, and he hurled it back to the other side of the House. Some HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. PLUMB said hon. gentlemen opposite might applaud sarcastically, but he would say it was unworthy of them, for those hon. gentlemen knew that the members of the Opposition had a common interest with the general community in the prosperity of the Dominion; they had no desire for any benefit to themselves, for there could be none in having the depression continue; they only wished to look at it with the eye of common sense. He never heard, except on the floor of the House, or read, save in a few platform speeches delivered during the past summer, that there was not still the greatest anxiety felt in all the commercial and financial circles of Canada in regard to the business of the country. He had not heard that the clouds were lifting, though God grant that they might soon see a glimpse of clear sky, and he did not care how soon it came, nor should it have any connection with the political situation here; and he might say that the party which desired to make political capital out of either the one question or the other, was unworthy of the confidence of the people of Canada. Some HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. PLUMB: Yes, hon. gentlemen might say "hear, hear," and he thought they would say it a good many times | year. And he spoke with the statistics before he had finished with the remarks to sustain him in making this statewhich he intended now to make in this House. His hon. friend from Centre Toronto, he thought, went a little out of his way when speaking of the depression. He (Mr. Macdonald) had said that the manufacturers, if they had more character, more intelligence, and more capital, would not require protection, but would succeed without it. Those, he believed, were the hon. gentleman's words; if they were not, he was open to correction. ment. There was certainly not a protection of 30 per cent. against the United States. It cost to more to send goods from Lowell, Mass., to Toronto than from Lowell to Cleveland. It cost no more to send goods from the principal manufacturing points in the United States to the principal cities in Canada, than it did to send them to the western cities of which they held the market. It was a mistake to say so, and he ventured to state this with all due deference, for in all matters of this kind he deferred to the hon. gentleman, and he could not wish to attempt to assume that he was in this House an authority upon such matters, such as the hon. gentleman ought to be; but such an authority, he was afraid, the hon. gentleman showed himself not to be in this relation, and he thought that, if the hon. gentleman reconsidered the case and looked over his figures again, he would not insist upon what he had stated here. His hon. friend from Centre Toronto was preceded by his hon. friend the member for North Oxford (Mr. Oliver). He (Mr. Plumb) might, at this point, say that, before his hon. friend (Mr. Macdonald) sat down he alluded to the course which was recommended by the hon. the Finance Minister in regard to not dealing with the tariff at present, and not pro MR. PLUMB said he had taken down the hon. gentleman's remarks exactly as he uttered them, and he thought he had the report of these remarks with him, though he did not wish to insist upon it, because he was very much astonished when he heard them; and he thought they were heard by other hon. gentle men. The hon. gentleman had said"They wanted capital, they wanted intelligence, and they wanted character." The hon. gentleman also told them-and he considered that the utterances of a gentleman of such large experience should be very guarded with respect to business affairs, be-viding for the deficits which were growcause he (Mr. Macdonald) was an authority in these matters-that the protection of 17 per cent., which we now had, was almost equal to 30 per cent. The hon. gentleman had led them to suppose that the cost of transportation, of bringing goods here from England, added 12 per cent. to the present tariff; but he omitted to state to the House and take the House into his confidence with respect to the fact that the great accumulations, the great increases of the imports of Canada had not come from Great Britain. What the Opposition had complained of was that the United States were undermining the British markets here; and that the imports from the United States were increasing from year to year, while those from Great Britain were falling off from year to ing and increasing upon the country, which he (Mr. Plumb) ventured to say, from what he knew of the business of the country, there was no reason to suppose were to be lessened at present by any change in the condition of the country. His hon. friend said he (Mr. Cartwright) had no other thing to do but to continue the policy of masterly inactivity and to rest upon the wheel a contented fly as long as he (Mr. Cartwright) was not disturbed from his position. His hon. friend had als said that Free-trade had made England; and that the Crossleys and the Brights were the result of the Freetrade system of England. He (Mr. Plumb) denied this in toto; he said there never was a country which was a stronger example of the benefits of the protective system than England was to-day; and that the whole result of the great ascendancy of England in that direction had been due to the fact that she was a sedulously protected country until she had acquired, by improvements in machinery, by great experience, by the intelligence of her manufacturers, and by her worldwide commerce, the power to become, for her own special and selfish purposes, a Free trade country. MR. MACDONALD: I hope the hon. gentleman will excuse me, for I never like to interrupt a speaker; but, to the best of my recollection, from the beginning of my remarks to the end, I never used the word free-trade, I do not think that this word is to be found in the remarks I offered to this House. MR. PLUMB said the hon. gentleman had made an explanation which was not an explanation. He had not stated that the hon. gentleman had used the word free-trade. He had said that the hon. gentleman spoke of the present policy of England, which was à Free-trade policy. The hon. gentle man was arguing in that direction altogether-that this policy made the Brights and the Crossleys. Now, he said that, if the hon. gentleman accept. ed his side of the argument, he would say that the protective policy of England made the Brights and the Crossleys; they had no issue, and they were all right. He (Mr. Plumb) was perfectly willing to let the hon. gentleman accept the dilemma, and leave him there. Having disposed of that part of the hon. gentleman's argument, he would refer to another point; he was amazed to hear the hon. gentleman say that, although the deficits were great and growing, he wished, great as they were, that the deficit had been greater. The commercial authority upon the other side of the House had made that statement; but he could not concur with the hon. gentleman in that view; and he thought that very few hon. gentlemen in the House, including the hon. the Finance Minister himself, would be in sympathy with the hon. gentleman, especially considering the difficulties which the hon. the Finance Minister had to deal with in the deficit as they Low stood. The line of argument which the hon. gentleman used in that respect was that, if the deficit had been greater, he thought the country would have sooner taken the alarm and taken in sail. He (Mr. Plumb) had not followed the hon. gentleman very closely on this point, but the idea the hon. gentleman seemed to convey was that the business men of Canada, the statesmen of Canada, or the men who were entrusted in this House with the affairs of this country, and to whom was delegated the legislation of Canada, were so insensate that they needed to have the teachings of such deficits staring them in the face in order to arrest their headlong progress. This might be so; but he did not undervalue the intelligence of the Government in such a way as to accept that line of argument or to bear it without entering his earnest and solemn protest against it; and he further believed that, in this respect, at least, if in no other, he should be in accord with the sound judgment and the common sense of the hon. gentle men He who usually controverted his opinions in this House, and to whose views, certainly, in most directions, he was happy to say, he was in opposition. They, then, still proceeding in inverse order, had had one of the most extraordinary harangues ever delivered to the House. The word harangue had been objected to as unparliamentary. would again use the word "harangue," because he knew it was a word of parliamentary propriety. He had been looking it up in the dictionary, and he had high authority for its use. One of the most extraordinary harangues that ever was delivered in the House was delivered by the hon. member for North Oxford (Mr. Oliver.) Heshould not attempt seriously to deal with arguments such as the hon. gentleman had brought forward, and which were listened to and applauded with the usual discrimination with which the opposite side of the House applauded anything, no matter how untenable or how illogical it was. Some HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. PLUMB said that, if this pleased hon. gentlemen opposite, he was very glad indeed, because it showed that they were very easily pleased; this was all |