time. The hon. gentleman could accomplish nothing by it; he had brought the subject very fully before the House and the country, and had exposed the necessity that to his mind existed for some change which would ensure absolute justice to every person having goods to carry on the railways. He did not agree with the hon. gentleman that it was possible to obtain a pro rata system throughout, because our leading railways have to contend with leading railways carrying the produce of the Great West to the ocean, and greater or less divergence from the pro rata system was necessary, in order to give them any business to do. With regard to the carrying trade within our cwn borders, the case might be different. He was aware the pro rata is in existence in regard to passenger traffic, with a slight difference in favor of long distances, and while it was more difficult to apply it to articles of merchandise carried on local railways, still there might be abuses that could and ought to be redressed, and so far as they could effect that purpose, the Government were willing to direct attention to it. Mr. IRVING (Hamilton) said the question was one of considerable difficulty, in consequence of the impossiqility, or rather impracticability or want of will on the part of Parliament to legislate at variance with what are recognised as vested rights. We had in the first place chartered railways, giving them authority to collect tolls at certain rates, viz., tolls which they shall fix subject to the assent, or disapproval of the Governor in Council. Having permitted the railway to borrow money upon the faith of those tolls, it became became almost an impossible task to a Legislature such as this to legislate in a way which might almost be looked upon as confiscation. But although the railways generally in the cases complained of did not levy tolls to as high a rate as they could by law, the difficulties arose by reason of their charging freights which are too low in one sense, and yet not low enough for those localities which have not the benefit of competition. question that was open to examination was whether or not the rates they levied are at variance with that branch of the law which directs that they

The

shall not levy tolls giving preference to one party over another. The law is that "the same tolls shall be payable

easy

"at the same time and under the same “circumstances upon the goods of all "persons, so that no undue advantage, privilege, or monopoly may be "afforded to one person or class of persons by any by-laws relating to "tolls." Many of the complaints which the hon. member for North Oxford made resolved themselves into an undue preference given to certain classes of traders, therefore the only way of altering that was by giving the public some simple and remedy whereby the difficulties complained of might be easily adjudicated upon. At present there is no tribunal by which the suitor or wronged party can conveniently take up the matter. So seriously was this felt in England that a tribunal of three experienced men. was appointed to sit all the year round as arbitrators, to examine into the details of these questions, and make certain rules which are capable of being carried into effect. He was not proposing that this very expensive system should be introduced into Canada, but he thought some simple practice and procedure might be adopted whereby judges of experience might have the power to deal similarly with a question of this kind subject to appeal to some tribunal in cases of doubt. He was inclined to think if the Government took up this question they would allay very extensive dissatisfaction which prevailed among all persons who are in the habit of shipping goods over railways. There would be nothing revolutionary in such a system; it would be but the providing of means to carry out the law, and would in no way encroach upon the vested rights of the railways. It would prevent them from making mistakes on the one hand, and shippers from making unjustifiable claims on the others. With reference to the statements of the hon. member for North Oxford, we only heard of those matters from newspaper letters and correspondence. There had not been, that he was aware of, any petitions emanating from Boards of Trade and so forth, calling upon Parliament to take up the question. No

the country had to close its doors, leaving useless an invested capital of over $1,000,000; and 300 men permanently employed were left without further occupation. The census of 187071 shows that the annual products of that establishment amounted to $2,620,000; $2,400,000 being the value of importations; that the salaries then paid in the establishment amounted to $71,000; that $120,000 was paid annually for cooperage, and $14,000 for iron works and general repairs. When the establishment was in operation 14,000 tons of coal, carried by our ships from the Pictou Mines, were annually consumed. In view of these facts it would be idle to contend that in this case a private interest merely is concerned. On the contrary not only was our home trade seriously affected thereby, but also our commerce with foreign countries, more especially the West Indies. Moreover, our merchant navy was deprived of the benefits to be derived from the transport each way of material. After the abolition of the Treaty of Reciprocity in 1875, when it became known that the American market was closed to our productions, a Commission was appointed by the Government then in power to visit the West Indies, Brazil, and other countries, with a view to ascertaining whether it would not be possible to establish direct commercial relations with them, in order to replace the trade until then maintained by the intermediary of the United States. It was then established beyond doubt that if we could export some of our produce, such as timber, beef, &c., and bring a return cargo, we could diminish the cost of transport, and compete successfully with the United States and other countries. The principal product of the West Indies being sugar, the attention of the Government was directed to the fact that by establishing and encouraging the development of sugar refineries here, a fleet of vessels would find employment in carrying home produce to the West India Islands, while they brought return cargoes of raw material for the refineries. There already had existed for a number of years a refinery at Montreal, which the census of 1860 shows manufactured to the value of

For some

$450,000 only. It would, therefore, be evident that trade had very considerably developed up to the year 1871, when, at Montreal, the value of sugar refined there rose to nearly $4,000,000. Since that period, instead of increasing, this branch of industry had languished year by year, and one establishment, that of Messrs. Molson and Smith, had to be closed. The cause of this decline is very generally attributed to the changes which were made about that time in the tariff. The other refinery continued in operation with some difficulty, while petitioning at frequent intervals for an alteration in the duties. months past the latter establishment had struggled for existence in the hope that that had been awakened by supporters of the Government, that this Session would bring with it the much required change in the tariff. Unfortunately for that establishment and for the country, they were deceived in their expectations, and the establishment has been compelled to close rather than to carry on at a direct loss. In order to show that by the closing of this establishment more than the proprietors and employees were the losers, he would read from a letter already brought under the notice of this House. It was addressed to his hon. friend from Montreal West, and signed by the largest sugar importers of Montreal. They said:

"We desire to bring under your notice, and, through you, under that of the Minister of Finance, the difficulty we might say, the impossibility-which we experience in carry、 ing on direct trade with Canada and the West Indies. The difficulty to which we refer is the want of modification here for Mascavado sugar, which constitutes the main export of the West India Islands. This article, which must be regarded either as a raw material for manufacture or as a necessary of life, is now subject to a combined specific and ad valorem duty equivalent to about 50 per cent. on its first cost. It may fairly be estimated that, were the tariff modified as we suggest,

not less than 75 additional vessels would

annually arrive at Montreal and Quebec.”

Since 1872 our commerce with the West Indies West Indies has been stationary, never exceeding $6,700,000. But in the four years succeeding our trade amounted to $25,000,000, being $16,000,000 worth exported against $9,000,000 imports, leaving a balance

in our favour of $7,000,000. The transport in connection with this trade was done by Canadian ships, which adds to the balance in our favour. The importance of fostering by every means in our power relations with the West Indies, and of promoting and extending this trade, could not more forcibly be shewn than by the figures just quoted. As to the manner in As to the manner in which the maintenance of sugar refin. eries in this country affected the interests of retailers and consumers respectively, he quoted from the letter of a gentleman, who, from his long experience, was eminently qualified to form an opinion.

Mr. Alex. McGibbon in a letter lately published, says:—

"The question is now asked, Will the consumer be as well served with or without a re

finery of our own? After a long experience it

can be said without a doubt that should the

refinery have finally to close up, the consumer will not be as well served as if in full working order, for, so soon as it is closed, just as sure will prices advance."

In the same letter, dealing with the objection that sugar has never been cheaper than at present, he says:

"I would remark that when Redpath made dry crushed or broken loaf, it was supplied at the same prices as the ground sugar; the price of the latter is now; Redpath's, 8c; Imported, 81c. to 8&c.; but the moment Redpath stopped. making dry crushed, the price of the imported advanced to a cent, and sometimes a cent and a half more than the ground."

Thus the general interests of importers, retailers and consumers are clearly shown to be identical; and the bounden duty of the Government was to afford the necessary measure of protection to this struggling branch of industry, which had so repeatedly been asked for. Amongst the anomalies pointed out as the cause of so much of the uneasiness that prevailed, was the difference in duty on raw material, raw material, and imported refined sugar. While the imported refined article is taxed only 40 per cent, the low grade is only taxed at 50, giving thus an advantage to foreign industry. Add to this the heavy drawback accorded by the United States Government to exporters, and it can easily be understood at what disadvantage Canada is obliged to compete. As regards the workmen employed in these establishments, claims on the consideration of Government are very strong. After some years'

labour in this line, a man became totally unfitted for any other branch of trade, on account of the high temperature in which he is accustomed to labour: so that the closing of the refineries would have the effect of driving him to seek elsewhere a field for his labour, which could not be had at home. Our annual expenditure for immigration being so considerable, there could be no reason why a diminution of revenue should not be suffered rather than permit these valuable hands to quit the country. To conclude, pro

tection in this case cannot meet with

objections from free traders, since it implies not taxation, but reduction. of taxation in favour of the consumer. He concluded by moving his motion.

Mr. JONES (Halifax) stated that he had listened to the observations of the

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hon. member for Hochelaga with great interest, and he only regretted that the hon. gentleman had spoken in a language which all the hon. members did not understand. His hon. friend and himself did not usually agree on public questions, but at last they were able to meet on common ground. The considerations involved in this question did not apply to perhaps any other branch of trade, and in it the Maritime Provinces were largely and peculiarly interested. minion aspect besides, as it very closely affected our foreign trade, and undoubtedly if we lacked this, the progress of this country would be very seriously retarded. An honorable member had suggested the importance of opening up trade relations with the West Indies by means of subsidies to be given lines of steamships; but be (Mr. Jones) contended, that the only means of establishing such a traffic in a satisfactory manner, was for the Government to arrange the sugar tariff so as to enable our ships to bring return cargoes. The trade of the Maritime Provinces with the West India Islands amounts annually to three and a half millions of dollars. Previous to the existing depression, this branch of our commerce had been in a flourishing condition, but the change in the tariff had considerably interfered with it. and at the same time he had heard that since the change he had mentioned had occurred, the consumers in

this country have been obliged to pay a higher price for their sugar. The French and Belgian Governments having established drawbacks in favor of their refiners, a deputation representing the British sugar interests had waited on Lord Derby and represented that the trade relations of Great Britain with the West Indies would be seriously affected by their continuance, and the Imperial Government announced that while they were willing to trade with all nations on fair terms,they were not willing to allow foreigners to possess undue advantages over their own manufacturers, nor to consent to the utter annihiliation of English interA correspondence took place with the French and Belgian Governments, and the result was a convention and the abolition of these draw-backs, the agreement having taken effect on the 1st of last March.

ests.

While a Free-Trader he (Mr. Jones) thought that they had abundant proof that whereas in this case on the raw material 50 per cent. duty was paid, only 40 per cent. was paid on the refined article, affording foreigners a very considerable advantage. The Government would be justified in asking the House to authorise them to impose on refined sugar a duty equal to the bounty granted to their refiners by foreign governments. He was willing that we should trade with the United States on fair terms, but if by a bounty system they tried to control our market and utterly ruin our inter∙ests, it was the duty of the Administration to levy such duties as to place Canadian on an equal footing with foreign manufacturers. He gathered from the observations of his hon. friend that the abolition of the sugar duties had had the effect on the sugar refinery at Montreal which he had anticipated, and the result had been an advance of one per cent., or 13 cents per pound, on the sugars manufactured in this refinery. This was natural and was to have been expected. The qualities of sugar which had been manufactured in Montreal were excel lent; and it was to be remembered that inexperienced people could, with ease, be led to believe that sugar was of high, when it was in reality of an inferior quality. A Custom's duty and

a bounty were very different things, and were to be dealt with very differently. ently. He was happy to find that the session had not been allowed to close without discussing this very important question.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER said he had at last heard a speech from his hon、 friend from Halifax to which he had listened with very great pleasure. There was a time in the past when the hon. gentleman and himself were sufficiently in accord to enable him to listen to all his utterances with pleasure, and from the sentiments which he had just given expression to, there was apparently room to hope that such a time would come again. As to the question before the House, he contended that if this Dominion is ever to secure this valuable West Indian trade which lies ready to be secured, if proper steps to that end were taken, it must be by adopting the policy just enunciated by the hon. member for Halifax. Canada furnished all the staple articles imported into the West Indies

fish, coal and lumber and we had the shipping of our own to convey them there. He was not now going to discuss the question of consistency or inconsistency, and he hoped that, having the able co-operation of the hon. member for Halifax, the advocates of this policy would be able to make a stronger impression upon the Government than they had succeeded in doing heretofore. The hon. mover of the resolution spoke in a language with which he (Mr. Tupper) was unfortunately not very familiar, and the hon. member for Hochelaga would therefore excuse him, if in his remarks he referred more particularly to what had been said by the hon. member for Halifax. It was not unimportant to see that capital should be kept in this country, and not carried away and invested in foreign nations. If that result were to be obtained in this instance, it must be by a radical change in the legislation of the Government. We had a practical illustration of the ruinous effects of that legislation in the removal from this country of the skilled labour necessary to produce refined sugar, which went to build up the manufactures and commerce of our neighbours across the line. With a