through all parts of the world. As was well stated by the hon. member for Kent, we will require for a Canadian establishment a staff of officials, danger of political influence being exercised in their appointment. We will also have to establish agents in all the principal ports of Europe where ships require inspection and reclassification. This country would not be prepared, particularly in the present depressed state of the finances, to create such a staff and sustain such expense. It is also proposed not to make this law compulsory, and I therefore fail to see what good it will effect. We may succeed in driving away English Lloyds and Bureau Veritas from our midst without obtaining a compensating advantage. The motion was agreed to. IMPORTS FROM THE UNITED STATES. Mr. YOUNG-I beg to move, Sir, that in order to ascertain to what extent Canada has been made a sacrifice market for American manufacturers during the last two years, it be Resolved, That an humble Address be presented to His Excellency the Governor General praying that His Excellency will cause to be laid before Parliament a statement shewing the total value of all articles imported from the United States into each Province of the Dominion during 1871, '72 and '73 paying 15, 10 and 5 per cent. duty respectively, and also a similar statement for 1874 and '75 of articles paying 17, 10 and 5 per cent., together with such remarks and further facts as the Commissioner of Customs may be able to add touching the increased importation of American manufactures into Canada. I hope, Sir, that my friend the Minister of Customs will consent to the adoption of this motion. Its object is to obtain a statement, bringing out, if possible, to what extent American goods have been sacrificed in our market since the commencement of the crisis in the United States in the fall of 1873; and I have purposely worded the latter portion of the resolution in such a way as to enable the Customs Department to bring down the returns in the most effective manner. My motion is seconded by Mr. Workman. move for The the possession of this House. Trade and Navigation Returns contain the information he desires, in an official and condensed form; not down, perhaps, to so late a period as the present day, but to the end of 1875. He might the additional statement, but I rather question, Sir, the propriety of asking for the opinion of any person in this country. The hon. gentleman demands a return of certain official data already in the possession of this House; and in addition, the views of the Commissioner of Customs. Mr. YOUNG-No! Hon. Mr. TUPPER-Then I misunderstood the terms of the motion, which I thought contained the words: -and any remarks the Commissioner of Customs may choose to add. Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE — It is quite evident this phrase is to be understood in the ordinary sense, for the hon. gentleman will find that in the returns a column is left for remarks,incidental, of course, to the extent of the subjects embraced; and this is all that can be obtained in such a relation. Hon. Mr. TUPPER--This is a motion for a return of certain data, and I imagined that his object was to get the opinion of the Commissioner of Customs-a subordinate--concerning the bearing of these figures, which will be otherwise contained. Now, I object to this, if that is his object. Mr. YOUNG-That is not my intention. After a brief discussion the Hon. Mr. Mackenzie altered the motion as follows: "That an Order of the House do issue, requiring the Minister of Customs to cause to be laid before Parliament, &c., with such explanatory remarks and further facts as he may be able to add, touching the increased imports." Sir JOHN A. MACDONALD-That will do. The motion being carried, and the hour being six o'clock, the House teok recess. AFTER RECESS. Hon. Mr. TUPPER-I would just suggest to my hon. friend, with refer- The debate on Mr. Mill's motion ence to this resolution, that the in- for the appointment of a Select Comformation for which he moves is inmittee to enquire into the causes of THE FINANCIAL DEPRESSION being resumed Hon. Mr. TUPPER said: Mr. Speaker, I do not rise for the purpose of making a speech on the present occasion. After what has fallen from the Hon. Minister of Finance, I think it would hardly be fair to go into a general discussion of the questions raised by the motion before the House. I rise, Sir, for the purpose of giving my hearty and emphatic support to the motion of the hon. Member for Bothwell. I agree with the hon. gentleman in the opinion that the condition of this country is a very deplorable one. I am not old enough, and my acquaintance with public affairs will hardly allow me to go as far back as the hon. member for Montreal West, who says that in 40 years he has never seen anything like the commercial depression or suffering in the country which exists to-day; but I agree with the hon. member for Bothwell that the country is in a condition requiring the serious attention of Parliament. His Excellency has provided us with a Committee to deal with precisely such questions as these. The gentlemen who now sit on the Treasury Benches have been placed there for the very purpose of making such enquiries, bringing the result to the House and submitting them for the approval of Parliament. They are there not only for the purpose of analyzing the condition in which the country is now placed and the cause of the depression, but they are there also to present such measures to the House as may tend to relieve the country. I agree with the hon. mem ber for Bothwell in the inference that his motion presents to every intelligent member of this House-that the time has come when we must have another Committee-that the Committee which His Excellency has provided the country with, to deal with such measures, have shown themselves entirely inadequate for the emergency. I go fur ther, and will be prepared at another ti ne to show to the House my reasons fr entertaining the opinion that he hon. gentlemen to whom pubic affairs have been entrusted have entirely failed in devising such measures as were necessary to relieve the country we are now in such emergency. If the combined talent of the Administration had been devoted, from the time of their acceptance of office to this, to cause the exact condition of affairs suffering from, they could not have discharged that duty with greater ability or success. Under these circumstances I accept the motion as one equal to the emergency. The time has come when we must have another Committee, to deal with this important question, and I have no doubt that when that motion receives, as I think it will, the support of a large majority of this House, and after that constitutional action has followed which must inevitably follow its passage, my hon. friend the First Minister will be able to suggest to His Excellency the Governor General the names of a Committee adequate to the duty proposed by the resolution. Mr. NORRIS-I am not opposed to the appointment of this Committee. It is our duty to make enquiry into the present state of the country--provided it is not to burk the question. If it is the intention to go to to work and prepare a report, I cannot see why there should be any objection to it. In my opinion it does not require a great deal of time to determine the causes of the stagnation of trade. All will agree, I think, that the lumber interest is suffering, not from any fault which rests with the country, but because other nations with whom we trade are experiencing financial stringency. That trade cannot possibly be benefitted until the cloud clears away from our neighbours over the borders. With regard to the agricultural interest, I think it is also depressed to a certain extent. It is said to be sound and prosperous; I believe it is sound, but I don't know that it is prosperous. This interest cannot flourish when the nations which we usually supply raise so much bread-stuffs as they have lately done. Secondly, I think that no Government, no matter who they may be, can possibly furnish better prices for our agricultural interests. When crops fail in other countries we may expect to see our farmers flourish, by reason of the increased demand there will be for their produce. Another drawback can be prevented | 000, and only exported $89,000,000, a great deal. Our manufacturing in- which leaves a balance of $37,000,000 terests are in a deplorable state; this against us. In 1874 we imported $127,has been admitted by every member 000,000 and exported only $89,000. who has spoken. I am not what you In 1875, we imported $119,500,000 and would call a Protectionist; neither do exported only $77,500,000, leaving I believe in discriminatory duties, be- about $42,000,000 to be provided for, the cause I believe we should not disturb balance against us. I think these our relations with our friends across figures must convince every person the borders. Without going into sta- that so long as we have so large a baltistics or a discussion of the questions lance against us, it is utterly impossiof free-trade and protection, which ble we can be as prosperous as we have been agitated long enough by the should be. I am sure the country is ablest men of all countries, I will looking for an increase of the tariff or merely refer to two nations with which something of the kind. This must be we are intimately acquainted, and evident to the gentlemen who are leadshow that what suits one will not suit ing the House. The impression in the the other. I believe what gives pros- country is that the revenue will be perity to England is not suited to Ca- short about $3,000,000. If that is the nada. England to-day can be called a case, I think it will tax every energy free-trade nation. She has prospered and ability of the Government to meet under that policy very largely, but the deficit, and carry on the public how long has she been a free-trade works of this country, the abandonnation? Her policy has been free- ment of which would only intensify trade just as long as it was necessary. the depression. The only way to raise It is not 100 years ago since she took this revenue, that I can see is by increasthe duties off timber from this and other ing taxation. For the last year the countries. And why? Because her people of this country have been getting home supply was growing scarce. It It wiser and decreased their importations was the same with corn; she took off instead of increasing them. I hope they the duty to feed the people she had will continue this. I have no doubt employed in her factories at small for a year or two our imports will fall wages. When England had her manu- very far short of what they have been. factories established and could compete If we have not a higher tariff, I do with the world, she became a free- not see how this large revenue is to be trade nation. raised. Take the United States, on the other hand. The policy of that nation has been protective from the commencement, and yet it has prospered even to a greater extent than England. I merely cite these two instances, to show that under different circumstances, a difference in policy was necessary and successful. The hon. member for Bothwell stated, in moving his resolution, and the hon. member for South Waterloo, in seconding it also stated that so long as we have the balance of trade against us we cannot possibly be prosperous. Mr. MILLS-I did not say that. Mr. NORRIS-I think it is a general opinion, at all events, that it must be so when the balance is so much against us as the trade and navigation returns show. I find that in 1873, we imported into this country $117,500, on I know some will say that it is no matter where we get our goods; if we can get them a little cheaper, we are all the richer. I decidedly cannot agree with them this point. I think it would be far better for this country to manufacture our Own goods, or at all events a portion of them; that would leave within the country the money we have to send to foreign nations. Statistics have been furnished in this debate to show that since 1872 the importations from the United States have nearly doubled, while the imports from Great Britain have decreased on nearly every article. It is plain the manufactures of the neighboring nation are supplanting English goods in this market, and I have no doubt they will continue to do so, and in the end, to a certain extent, find their way even into the markets of England. Although largely interested in wheat and flour, I would say, at the present time at all events, I do not believe it it is discrect that we should impose a duty on provisions going into the Maritime Provinces. We feel the injustice, however, of admitting them free into our country while a duty of 20 per cent. is placed on flour and grain we send to the United States. There could, however, be a duty placed on corn. By the trade and navigation returns, I notice that we imported 3,679,000 bushels of Indian corn last year, and exported 2,050,000 bushels, leaving 1,700,000 of a balance against this country. None this corn is imported to feed the people, but to make whiskey. Why should this not be taxed? If we must have whiskey, the coarse grains of our own Province could be used for the purpose, and there is also a large section of country along Lake Erie where corn can be successfully raised. A duty on this product would benefit our agricultural interests. I think it is time for this country to take a decided step on this matter, and put an end to such unjust and unfair competition with our own people. I am very much pleased to find that gentlemen who were Free Traders a few years ago, are Protectionists now. I remember how the hon. member for Cumberland rated the Finance Minister soundly because he increased the duty 23 per cent., but now, if I understand him, he wants more. He says the policy of the Government is ruinous to the country, and the manufacturing interest is depressed for want of protection. But if the late Government had not reduced the tariff in 1867 to fifteen per cent. I am inclined to think this country to-day would have been in a more prosperous condition than it is. But, Sir, if the country is ruined, as the hon. gentleman has said, certainly this Government is not responsible and it is hardly necessary to say anything more on this occasion. I am sure that the Government of the day would not ignore what I do not believe they can -the cry for protection that has gone forth in this country. What do we find? That from every city in Ontario and Quebec-I will not say anything about the Maritime Provinces, I presume they are free traders and I respect their opinions--but in every city in Ontario and Quebec, and in every town-not a man would be elected unless he avows himself in favour of incidental protection to our manufactures. Commencing at Quebec and coming to Montreal, Toronto, London and Hamilton, every candidate that would dare to avow himself a FreeTrader would be elected to stay at home. I think it is the time, and I am sure I think it is my duty to speak and tell this hon. House that these are the views of the people. Mr. BOWELL-The question before the House, like the one under discussion a few nights ago, has drifted to the general question of protection and freetrade. It is not my purpose, however, to discuss that question now. When the right hon. member for Kingston rose at the moment it was supposed that the motion was to be carried without debate and called your attention and the attention of the Government to the fact that the resolution was worded so as to be to all intents and purposes a vote of want of confidence in the Administration, I supposed that the question, would have been settled between the gentlemen occupying the Treasury Benches and the Leader of the Opposition. However, the Hon. Minister of Finance took exception to the constitutional point which had been raised by my right hon. friend from Kingston, and in endeavouring to substantiate the position which he took, cited a motion which had been moved in this House, and carried at the time when that gentleman was in the Government and Leader of the House. I was surprised after his having called attention to the fact that the motion for the appointment of the Committee to enquire exclusively into the state of the manufacturing interests of this country was substantially the same as that which is now before the House, that he should ask the hon. member for Bothwell to so change his motion as to be in accord with that formerly passed, thereby admitting the force of the objection taken at the beginning of the debate. However, my present intention is more particularly to call attention to the remarkable speech of my hon. friend from North York. My hon. friend the member for Frontenac designated that speech as an unmanly one. I shall not use that term, but I do say, after looking into that matter, I must express my surprise and give utterance to the strongest expression when I say that if it were not unmanly it was certainly a most unfair and one-sided speech towards the gentleman to whom he referred, and a mutilation of that gentleman's resolution and speeches at the Board of Trade. I shall endeavour to show that what I have asserted I can substantiate by the public records. I know that the hon. gentleman excused himself by stating that he had a right to refer to a gentleman out of the House with reference to his public acts, more particularly when these resolutions were moved in a public body like the Board of Trade. Had he confined himself to that, in all probability no notice would have been taken of his remarks; but he said this gentleman was the rising hope of the Conservative party in this country, therefore I suppose it was necessary for him to bring down upon that gentleman's head his displeasure and the weight of his great intellect. I do not doubt that he felt humiliated ever since that speech was delivered. I question trade in 1873, and then in 1874 moved a resolution in favour of protection, and that the course suggested itself to him to carry out because his friends were in power at one time, and because at the other that his political opponents were in power, is certainly not borne out by the facts. Mr. DYMOND----I beg that the hon. gentleman will allow me to correct him. I made no suggestion about any such motive having influence with the gentleman he has referred to. quoted simply from the resolutions which were moved; I did not refer to I any speech of his; I quoted simply from the record here word for word as it appears in this book. I made no suggestion whatever as to his motive. Mr. BOWELL----The hon. gentleman has forgotten himself, I think. Mr. DYMOND----No. for the hon. gentleman to forget some- the minds members; a proceeding which should be beneath the whether he will be enabled to raise his head any more in any constituency where he may present himself; but what had the dinner given to Mr. White in Montreal to do with the dignity of a gentleman occupying his proceedings of the Board of Trade? exalted position in this country. With What had the speech delivered by the lution, and I wish to explain that it your permission, I will read the resoright hon. member for Kingston at the was an amendment moved to a resoludinner to do with Mr. White's utterantion which had been proposed by Mr. ces and speeches at the Board of Trade ? Robert Wilkes, a former member of this What had the defeat of Mr. White House-I think I may use the termby my hon. friend the member for in the direction of free-trade, pure and Montreal West to do with that simple, and one that would have met gentleman's utterances at the Board of with the approbation of my hon. friend Trade? The fact is he thought it was from Welland, provided that it included necessary to use a very familiar exin it his pet theory of free money. pression-to "squelch" that gentleman Then I shall quote a few remarks made out of existence, and in doing that he by Mr. White upon this motion, and evidently had bottled up in his mind also the view that was taken of it by an onslaught on the right hon. member Mr. Wilkes, who had moved a freefor Kingston; and the member for trade resolution; and I ask whether he Kingston also, I suppose, was comwas justified in attributing free-trade pletely annihilated by that hon. gentle-principles to Mr. White on that occa man's utterances. That Mr. Thos. White, at the Board of Trade meeting, moved a resolution in favour of free sion : "Mr. Thomas White, of Montreal, moved, seconded by Hon. Robert Read- who is cer |