Mr. GORDON-I find a very labored effort is being made by a certain class to persuade the farmers of this country they are suffering under a grievance which a protective policy would remove. The profession comes from the millers who, at a meeting held in Toronto recently, passed a resolution declaring that the admission of American produce and flour into Canada free of duty is a gross injustice to the agricultural and milling interests of this country. I have one thing to object to in this resolutionand that is, the millers having grievances of their own, seek to show that they are shared by the farmers. Under the national policy the duty on wheat was 4 cents per bushel, and the profit to the miller on every barrel of flour was eight cents. This may appear trifling, but an illustration of its importance may be found in the fact that my hon. friend from Lincoln, who produces 700 barrels of flour a day in his mills, made $56, or $336 a week by it. No wonder the millers are complaining that they need such protection, but they should not seek to make a stalkinghorse of the farmers to carry their grievances to a successful issue. I find the following figures in a valuable work entitled Does Protection Protect?":"In 1820, the total exports "of wheat from the United States, was $38,000,000. Between 1820 and 1830 "was a period of high protection. In "1830 the value of wheat exported was $53,000,000, an increase of 36 per "cent in the decade." Between 1830 and 1840 was a period of free trade. I find the value of exports in 1840 had increased to $93,000,000, an increase of 76 per cent. From 1840 to 1847 was a period of protection, and the last three years of the decade a period of free trade. During the ten years ending 1850 the increase was only 35 per cent. From 1850 to 1860 "free trade policy prevailed, and the "increase was 107 per cent. From 1860 "to 1869 a period of the closest protec"tion, the increase was only 2 per "cent.' For the four years between 1839 and 1842, a period of free trade, the average price of flour was $5.45 per barrel; from 1843 to 1846, a period of protection, it was $4.40; from 1854 to 1861, a period of free trade, the price was $6.47; from 1862 to 1867, a period of protection, the price was $1.94. The average price during a period of 17 years of free trade was $6.13: during a period of ten years of protection, $4.75. The average price per barrel during twenty years of free trade was $1.95; during twenty-five years of free trade, $6.04. Now, I think these figure must show to any candid mind that although the millers and others may profit by a protective tariff on flour, the loss to the farmer is $1.36 per barrel as the result of the system. I think, that if these facts are duly impressed upon the minds of the agriculturists, it will show that this agitation on the part of the millers arises from very selfish motives, regarding a matter in which they are directly concerned; therefore, I hope that under these circumstances the farmers will perceive, as was remarked the other night by the hon. member for South Norfolk, that they will have to bear a grievous burden. The hon. gentleman, the member for Norfolk, made an allusion to the prices of land on the banks of the Hudson and in the Province of Ontario, stating that on the Hudson some $250 an acre were paid, whilst in this Province the average was only $50 per acre. I take issue with the honorable gentleman on that point, for I believe it can be clearly shewn that in no part of the United Statestaking the last five years as the average -has the price of land risen in the same ratio as in Ontario. I remember, when five years since,it was considered a high rate to obtain $50 an acre for the best farms in the best. localities, and I now find in my own and surrounding neighbourhoods, entirely removed from any manufacturing establishments, that prices range from $110 to $120 per acre. So I think that this will prove that the advance in values does not arise from the proximity of lands to such industries, but to their intrinsic worth and the character of their products. This, in my opinion, will always be the guage, in Ontario at all events. Complaint is made that our industries are suffering grievously; but I am not aware that any hon. gentleman condescended to mention the closing of any such establishments in Canada. The Finance Minister referred to instances, particularly in the iron trade, where firms were obliged to shut down in the United States, in consequence of over-production; but I can mention a native industry which was compelled to close its doors, for a time at all events, the starch manufactory at Edwardsburg. The cause, very candidly assigned, is that very large factories at Oswego manufacture this article to the value of $500,000 annually. A home market is found for $400,000 worth at an average profit of from 25 to 30 per cent., and the remainder is sent to Canada to be sold at a reduction of five cents per pound, in order to close the Canadian establishments. Now, I ask if this is the case, how could a protective tariff prevent such a competition? If the American manufacturers choose to make a sacrifice,how can we prevent it? I think that the cause for existing evils is to be found in the depression which prevails in the United States, and this will be remedied in the course of time. Our friends who advocate a protective policy, point across the border as to a kind of paradise, where all Protection- | ists are flourishing; and I will just read two short paragraphs from a very important periodical published in the interests of the American shoemaking and leather interests at the present date, and they are to the following ef fect: "Manufacturers complain that a large amount of bankrupt stocks in boots and shoes on the market, has been operating unfavourably to prices." Again I find in another place: "We are glad to note an increased interest in the matters of foreign trade among manu facturers of women's goods. If this branch of trade is suffering from over-production it only needs a little self-sacrifice in the way of labor on the part of a few capable men to clear the obstacles from the road." The same cause--over-productionoperates there as well as here, and although they have an average protective duty of 48 per cent., they still labour under these disabilities. I cannot see how raising the tariff to 20 per cent. would have the effect of shutting out the evils of which complaint is made, when there is an additional tariff over the border of 28 per cent. Mr. BLAIN-I am unable to support the amendment, which, if I understand it properly, declares that we should establish a discriminatory tariff in favor of Great Britain as against the United States. I cannot conceive that this would be in the interests of the country, though I am willing to do all in my power to obtain what I think is necessary protection for our manufactures. A great deal of discussion has taken place beyond the proper limits of the debate. In the first place, many hon. gentlemen talked about protection and free trade. There is no such thing as free trade in any country of which I have knowledge on the face of the earth. There is not a single nation which is not governed by a protective policy, with the single exception of Great Britain. When the subject was reviewed, it was found that in this country out of 1,500 articles on the list she only derived sufficient revenue to pay collection for some seventeen; and that out of a portion of these seventeen she now obtains her revenue. In other words, she is almost as much a protective country as when she adopted the policy she at present terms free trade. When we come to this side of the ocean we find the people of the United States have a protective policy; and we therefore find that free trade is nowhere the rule, while protection is universal. Every nation, we are well aware, regulates her own affairs, and may foster or injure our own industries. No one here desires to shut out trade and commerce by a very high protective tariff; we wish to have a tariff for revenue purposes, so arranged as to protect our manufactures. We have three classes, the manufacturing, the commercial, and the agricultural; two are productive, ard the third wholly distributes; and if depression affects either the agricultural or manufacturing, the third must necessarily suffer. It is admitted that the farm ces. tion legislatively. It is conceded that | The country has simply been passit is the duty of Great Britain to inter- ing through a crisis, which will fere in case a foreign country should again be followed by others, for give a large bonus on the export of every country has crises as regular as sugar, and the same principle applies, the seasons, though at greater distanwhether a nation or manufacturers, No country has ever risen to are willing to make this sacrifice; in greatness without passing, not only this event, the whole principle of pro- through its crisis, but its crises, and tection is granted, and consequently the neighbouring country to which rewe should place on the Statute Book, ference has been made, and which has a law in this regard. That Great reached to such a point of manufacturBritain has been injured by her ing perfection, has passed through a free trade policy is patent to | variety of crises. every visitor of that country. Fifty years ago probably every other man in Great Britain owned some property; but what is the case to-day, nearly every man is forced to depend upon wages as the means of support for himself and his family. The speech of the Finance Minister was admirable. He stated that protection in the United States had enriched the few and impoverished the many, but what is the state of things in Great Britain ?—At the present moment nearly all the land is in the hands of about 50,000 persons, and nearly all the capital in the possession of about ten times that number. In no country on the face of the earth is there so little in the possession of the great mass of the people as in Free Trade England. When other nations are able to compete with her, she must return to a protective policy. Apropos of Bessemer steel, it was imported into the United States at the rate of $160 a ton; at present, with a protective tariff, it is manufactured in the United States of as good quality in every respect for $60 per ton. It has been supplied for something like 80,000 miles. of railway. The amendment reflects upon the financial policy of the Government, and as it is a motion of want of confidence I cannot vote for it. The eminent manufacturers of that country who have rolled up colossal fortunes, have built them On the wrecks of those who have preceded them. The resolution which was moved for the appointment of the Committee took another turn, and the amendment was moved that there should be a Committee to consider the depressed manufacturing interests. That Committee is sitting now, and that Committee has come to this House and asked for a short-hand writer, and I have no doubt they intend to do a large amount of business. And yet we have the strange anomaly of a Committee sitting to consider the depressed condition of the manufacturing interests of the Dominion, and the Government adopting a policy which affords no help to the manufacturing interests. I promised upon another occasion, when I last addressed the House, that I would refer to some of the causes which have brought this crisis about. I stated that among these was the cheap credit of England, but I have perhaps failed to impress on some of the members of this House the extent to which this evil exists. Starting from the threshold, we have the young men of the country coming to the cities, as the last census exhibits, despising the labor of the field and seeking in the larger cities mercantile. callings; and so long as that disgust-shall I call it-of labor and tilling the soil exists, we shall have the same results. Here, then, is the source of the evil. They come to the city, and they easily obtain goods, the parties from whom they obtain credit having themselves easily obtained it. Notably, the export trade of Great Britain to this continent has been gradually leaving her, and her merchants have been taking with her customers in this country greater risks than they otherwise would have done. The goods from Great Britain are sent out to this country not only to the man who buys them, but they are consigned to other parties and thrown on the market irrespective of value, and I appeal to this House if this country has a consuming power for fifty millions of dollars worth of goods, and a hundred millions are thrown on it, is it not apparent that every industry must be depressed? Let me give one illustration. In the city of Montreal a very short time ago one concern, I was told, failed for a million and a quarter of dollars. That concern, I understand, had very little difficulty in arranging with their creditors in Great Britain at ten cents on the dollar. It is not a difficult thing to understand that a million and a quarter of dollars worth of goods thrown on a small market under such dishonest circumstances affects it considerably. Credit is so cheap in England that the same firm while settling for ten cents on the dollar was making arrangements for renewing their stock again to demoralize the market as they had done before. Speaking of the ease with which goods are obtained, so anxious are British merchants to throw them on the market that stocks bought in December are dated in the month of March. You have thus three clear months, and beginning with that they then obtain a credit of six months, which makes it nine months; then they have very little difficulty in obtaining a renewal for one-half, which makes a credit of nearly twelve months; The slaughter does not come from the United States. I was quite clear on that matter when in this House I made the statement the other day, but since then I wrote to two firms in the United States the following questions: which has taken place in the sale of dry goods by the United States to Canada during the past year ? Answer.---We cannot. In our opinion the quantity is very materially increased over previous years, but to. what extent we cannot say with any accuracy. Your Custom Houses statistics would show this. Question.It is claimed that goods are sold regardless of price, and at indefinite time, by the United States merchants to Canadians, &c.? Answer.----This is not true as applied to manufacturers or selling agents, but, undoubtedly, to a certain extent, jobbers who have "runners" throughout Canada and the United States, de much to demoralize prices and terms, as you fully understand, but this ap plies the same to the United States as to Canada. I will point to the fact that in the large cities of Montreal, Toronto and Hamilton, the agents of English houses have their offices, for which they do not pay more than £35 or £40a year. They contribute nothing to the municipal expenses of the cities in which they are placed, while they sell as many goods as any wholesale merchants in any of these large cities, who have either to build their warehouses or rent them, employ clerks, and maintain expensive establish ments. This is a very great grievance, but I do not speak of it in this House to bring any measures correct it, as it will correct itself. It is one of the many plans by which English houses seek to disseminate their wares through the country. to Then another feature that has brought not only this but previous crises about, has been the establishment of mercantile agencies in Canada. This firms Canada. This may appear a very strange statement indeed, but the day was when a man who went to travel with goods required to be an intelligent man; the day was when a man who went to introduce his goods into the country required not only vim, but culture and intelligence. Now a little memorandum book is put into the hands of agents, and A B and C are said to be the men who are Question.----Are goods sold to Canada by United States manufacturers or commission men, lower than to the people of the United States? Answer.-No; our prices and terms are the same to all buyers, whether from Canada, United States, or elsewhere. Question.----Can you give any reliable information as to the probable increase to be called on. It would not matter so much if but a few were instructed to call upon these men, but all of the | 1,500 travellers in Canada receive the same instructions, and the result is that if the man is not bad they make him bad in a very short time by crowding on him more goods than he can use. I have in my hand a letter from a house which sells in the course of the year as many goods as the Dominion of Canada imports from Great Britain altogether, and it will be satisfactory that this firm endorses the statement I have ventured t› make in this House. They say: "We have been aware that the subject to which you refer would be brought before your body for consideration at your present meeting, and we are very glad to receive your communication, in order that, so far as we are able, we may correct any misapprehensions which exist regarding the trade between the United States and the Provinces. Answering your questions in the order in which they are propounded, we beg to say that we presume we are sending more American goods into the Provinces than any other house connected with the trade, and we can most emphatically state that at no time and under no circumstances have our goods been sold to your merchants at lower prices than those which we received from merchants doing business in our own States; ou the contrary, all buyers of merchandise of us, whether from the our own country, are in every respect treated Canadas or from the most remote sections of alike as regards the sale to them of our goods. "In this connection we would suggest that our terms are confined strictly to our customers' credit of sixty days on what are called domestic goods, viz., sheetings, shirtings and prints, while the foreign goods that we sell throughout the Provinces or throughout the States are based on a credit of four months. "As an instance of how closely we hold to these terms, a proposition was made us within the past few days by a house doing business in Canada, of known standing and respectability, to purchase a considerable amount of our domestic goods, provided we would sell them on a credit of four months, adding interest for the extra sixty days of time, which we promptly declined, simply because it was a longer credit than we are willing to grant on such goods. This instance, we think, is a fair illustration of the manner and time at which American goods are being sold to provincial merchants. We wish we could advise you clearly and definitely regarding the increase of the trade in dry goods between the United States and and the Canadas, but this is a question rather to be determined by your Custom House records than by any estimates which can be formed here. Our own trade with the Provinces during 1875 was increased moderately over that of 1874, but it has not grown to be an element in our sales of sufficient importance to be especially noted." I shall not detain the House by reading the balance of the letter, but it is a very suggestive proof to my mind of the statement I have made. I have received since then further confirmation of the statement--the settlement of the affairs of a wholesale house that has just gone into insolvency. Its liabilities, direct and indirect, are a quarter of a million. I know that it did a large American trade, but the amount of American liabilities represented in that quarter of a million is only two thousand dollars. The Americans have discounted in their sales all possible loss; they have brought everything as nearly as possible to a cash basis. They sell goods at very short time, and if payment is not made they cut off the customerthis is an instance. I venture to make this statement, that that thing will go on, and that while the imports from Great Britain will steadly decrease, those from the United States will as steadily increase, unless you build up barriers against them, and such barriers as I cannot defend. Unless you build up such barriers before another eight years elapse you will find that the trade with the United States, amounting to $50,000,000 to-day, will reach a volume of not less than $100,000,000. The reasons are so numer ous that a little reflection will show how apparent this is. The United States are 3,000 miles nearer us than Great Britain. Canadian merchants can telegraph to New York to-day, and in three days receive their parcels. In a few days more they are sold out, and have duplicated and triplicated their transaction before they could get returns from England. It is useless to shut our eyes to the change that is going on between this country and the United States. there are Coming down to the Budget Speech of the hon. gentleman, I desire to state which it would be folly for this House that there are several things in it to do other than approve. And some things to which I shall take objection. For instance, I cannot shut my eyes to the fact ---I am speaking from memory---that some $4,000,000 has been spent upon what are called "minor works," that $2,000,000 has been paid on account of Prince Edward Island; and if I remember right, and the hon. gentleman will correct me if I am wrong--in reference to the St. Lawrence |