Hon. Mr. POPE alluded to the collections of interesting documents in this country and Europe upon which the history of Canada would, in a measure, be based. Mr. Brymner, a gentleman who, previous to his appointment, had been employed in the office of the Herald (Montreal), had been sent to London, and Mr. Verrard to Paris; they had searched the archives preserved in those two cities, and had made important discoveries. At this point, as the Hon. Mr. Pope had not brought with him papers to which he desired to refer, the item was left over for consideration at another time.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER then called attention to the fact that the item which had been previously entered in order to provide for salaries and contingent expenses of the established office, Halifax-amount, $4,100-had | been omitted. The Union Act provided that the collection of statistics

should appertain to the general Government. At the time of its passage there existed in Nova Scotia a law to which the people of that Province attached very great importance, requiring the preparation of statistics. They had been willing to charge themselves with the expenditure necessary for this purpose and continue the system which was the best of the kind in the Dominion; and they had not supposed that the time would arrive when this Government would remove the appropriation for this purpose. Vital statistics were very important, and to procure them in proper

form was one of the first duties of an

the

Administration. He did not know of any country to which such a system would be of greater advantage than to Canada. It was one of the means by which the outside would become acquainted with matters of extreme importance in connection with system of immigration-such as health and climate, &c. He regretted the proposal of the Government on several grounds, and he would observe that Nova Scotia would have great reason to complain on account of it. It was due to their own reputations that the Government should bring forward reforms, and he suggested that this system would be one of the most

valuable improvements which could be inaugurated. Besides it would save their reputations by leaving one reform behind them on the Statute Books.

Hon. Mr. CARTWRIGHT was very glad to hear that the hon. gentleman had some good intentions. The Government had considered this matter and found great difficulties in the way of carrying out any system of statistics worthy of the name, and it was not desirable to have any partial system. With respect to the question immediately before them, the item had been omitted by a clerical error; the system was intended to be continued this year, but they would announce their intention. to abolish it next. He could give little hope of the adoption of a general system of statistics; the question of expense was too serious. ~He would feel it his duty as to the matter in hand to bring down a supplemental

estimate.

Hon. Mr. POPE referred to the

great importance of a proper system of statistics, remarking that among its many advantages would be that of enabling his hon. friend to ascertain the exact basis on which to raise his revenue. The system was really of necessity to the country, and would probably not cost more than $150,000. It would show the world we had a most healthy country and would in that way attract emigrants.

Hon. Mr. CARTWRIGHT said his hon. friend's estimate of the cost was well within the mark; $150,000 would not at all meet the expenses of the system. From a legal point of view, however, it would be practically impossible to carry it out, and if the hon. gentleman came to consider the matter he would recognize that fact.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER was glad that the system immediately under review was not to be abolished this year, as it would leave another year for its consideration, and he hoped the question after this discussion would be reconsidered. It was not exactly fair, in view of the fact that the Province of Nova Scotia provided for the service before Confederation, that it should now be abolished.

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said the Committee must remember that the ser

+

vice is not really performed for the money voted in Nova Scotia. To make the statistics practially useful required more than three times the amount asked, and it was of little real value unless a larger sum was spent. In Ontario the municipal law enabled the compilation of an exact system of statistics regarding real and personal property, and vital statistics will be added this year. The system, however, had been acknowledged practically useless up to this moment, but by the adoption of an energetic administrative measure it would soon be made more effective. In Lower Canada it was admitted that the record of births and deaths was

much more accurate than anywhere else, and it was a system which cost very little to the Dominion. Statistics of real and personal property were necessary to let the people in Europe know what the average wealth of our people is. In addition, statistics of trade were valuable. Our Navigation Returns were prepared in such a way as not to be so available as carefully condensed tables of districts. The railway system of Canada was now very extensive, and when any new project came up, some of the Directors go to England and endeavour to obtain money on the issue of bonds, but they had absolutely no means of laying before the public the real position of every part of the road and its relation to other roads. Every company of any size got up a map, sometimes showing its own line in a favourable light, and the other roads in a crooked manner. An authoritative volume giving full particulars regarding the railways of the Dominion was of extreme necessity, and they had taken pains to prepare such a book, which would be placed in the hands of members in a few days; and the engineers were preparing a map, showing with perfect accuracy every railway in the Dominion. Personal statistics were rather beyond their power, a fact which was recognized by the hon. member for Cumberland and his colleagues in not pushing their Bill to its legitimate conclusion-a place on the Statute Book.

Mr. PLUMB stated that a complete system of statistics would be of great

service to the Government, the public and the country.

Mr. BROUSE called attention to the necessity of the establishment of a Bureau of Sanitary Statistics. It was one of the most important questions that could engage the attention of the House; and any money expenditure in that direction he was certain would be acquiesced in by the country. He showed that in Maine the death rate had been greatly reduced by improved sanitary measures, and a corresponding reduction would take place in Canada if similar measures were adopted.

Hon. Mr. POPE thought a more efficient system than that before the House was required.

Item No. 53, for $6,500, to meet expenses in connection with the organization of the Patent Record, and item No. 54, for $5,000, to meet expenses in connection with the preparation of Criminal Statistics was adopted without discussion.

On the item of $100,000 to meet the probable expenditure required in connection with the Philadelphia Exhibi

tion,

Mr. BOWELL asked if there was any probability that the $100,000 passed last session would be sufficient, or whether it was intended to bring down any new sum in the supplementary estimates.

Hon. Mr. CARTWRIGHT said it was surmised that it would be sufficient, together with the sums the Provinces would vote in addition.

Mr. YOUNG said that although it was desirable to keep the expenditure in this matter as low as possible, yet it was also desirable Canada should make a good display there. The fruit growers desired $2,000 in addition to the sum already awarded them in order to enable them to make the exhibition creditable to Canada. He would prefer to see the amount increased rather than the Canadians should not make a first-class display.

Mr. DOMVILLE was opposed to further expenditure in this direction, believing that the depressed condition of the country would not warrant a larger appropriation than $100,000.

Mr. PLUMB hoped that if the fruit growers wanted assistance that they would receive it out of the $100,000, and that if that sum was not sufficient that a further sum would be granted. Hon. Mr. TUPPER considered the credit of the country mitted, and he hoped nothing would be spared that was absolutely necessary to make that exhibition thoroughly creditable to the country.

was com

The Fruit Growers' Association here as well as in Nova Scotia having exhausted their means, and their application for aid in this regard having been refused for want of funds, he thought that, as probably these associations had no funds on which to draw, the Finance Minister should be asked to put into the supplementary estimates an additional sum-say $20,000—which if necessary could be used for their purposes.

The item was passed.

Item 58, providing for the expenditure of $5,628.50 for new militia pensions, passed without discussion.

Item 59, appropriating $50,000 to meet the probable amount required for pensions paid to veterans of the War of 1812, being taken up,

Hon. Mr. VAIL explained that though this sum had been expended last year, thirty or forty veterans still remained to be paid. It was believed that this appropriation would be sufficient during the present year, as a number of pensioners had died; the diminution on this account would probably amount to twenty.

Mr. WRIGHT (Pontiac) enquired whether there was any provision for the payment of the pension to the widows or orphans of those who died before the money reached them.

Hon. Mr. VAIL replied that it was quite impossible to meet these claims.

Mr. BROUSE would have liked to see the vote doubled and $50 in lieu of $20 paid to each of these veterans, many of whom were extremely poor.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER could not see why the claims of the widows and orphans of applicants should not be honoured; it was a mere question of

very few-not twenty cases at the outside.

Mr. MACDONALD (Cornwall) regretted that the vote was not increased. The sum appeared to be very small.

Mr. MASSON took the opportunity to ask whether it was intended to give a gratuity to the widow of a Judge who had recently died?

Hon. Mr. BLAKE had no objection to answer the question at once. A memorial in this relation had been presented; a two month's allowance, as was done under the circumstances in

the cases of all public servants deceased, had been granted, but the Government did not intend to give a pension.

Mr. WRIGHT (Pontiac) suggested that as an inducement to citizens to serve in the Militia, grants of wild lands, which did not appear at present to be of great demand, should be held out to them, to be given after a certain period of service had expired. Unless some such thing was done, under our present system he believed that the volunteers would very largely dis

appear.

Hon. Mr. CARTWRIGHT-We cannot hold out any encouragement in that direction.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER thought that the object of Parliament had not been attained with regard to the pensions given to the veterans of 1812. No hon. member had supposed that $20 would only be received by each of them, but rather $50. He hoped that the Government would reconsider the matter.

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE-The hon. gentleman must remember that a very large number who received $20 are very well off, some moving in the first circles of society, they having pressed

their claims. There must be a limit to these public allowances, and if possible, we should discriminate, but that is extremely difficult and cannot be entertained.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER was of opinion that the establishment of the longevity of Canadians proven by the number of these veterans who had made good their claims was worth all the money expended in that connection; it was very important for the country, which has―

Mr. WOOD agreed with the hon. First Minister that the large majority of those men are wealthy.

Mr. BROUSE suggested that a certain number of medals should be struck off and the pensioners allowed to take them instead of money if they so desired. Some of the wealthy men would prefer the medals so that they could hand them down to their child

ren.

Mr. GIBSON thought $40 instead of $20 might be given, as the men were passing away rapidly.

Hon. Mr. BLAKE said there was just one way of making a discrimination. Those of the veterans who are well off could refuse their pensions, and the money could be distributed among those who are poor.

Mr. BURPEE (Sunbury) had no doubt many of them would accept a medal as a reconnaisance, but in his section of the county, where the men were not so rich, most of them would take the money.

The item was passed.

Item 60, consideration to pensioners in lieu of land, $8,000 was carried.

On item, $7,000, for care and maintenance of properties transferred from the Ordnance and the Imperial Government, including rents, under the heading of Militia,

Mr. DOMVILLE enquired what steps had been taken with regard to the Government lands at Fredericton.

Hon. Mr. VAIL said nothing had been done except to put a portion of the lands not required for military purposes into the hand of the Minister of Interior to be disposed of.

Mr. DOMVILLE said there were some squatters on the land.

Hon. Mr. LAIRD said there were none except those who were under lease.

Mr. WRIGHT (Pontiac), asked whether it was proposed to dispose of the Ordnance lands in the vicinity of Ottawa. He was informed that Cartier Square was being surveyed

in question has not been surveyed; the

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE—The land

Government will act in that as in other matters in the public interest.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER said he considered the hon. gentleman's reply was an insult to the House. Parliament represented the people, and the Government were not despotic controllers of the Dominion. It was nothing new for the Premier to give such answers, but it was an abuse of power.

to

He would like, for instance, to ask if he were not afraid subject himself to similar insult, by what authority the Government had undertaken to deal with Major's Hill in this city, in the way they had done, without consulting Parliament. He was not discussing the policy or impolicy of the course of the Government, but the position was that the Government had no right to deal with the public property irrespective of authority obtained from Parliament. He did not think a greater wrong could be inflicted on the people of Ottawa than to divide Cartier Square into lots and dispose of them. It was on the faith of that being reserved as a public square that parties invested their money in adjoining lots, and expend ed large sums of money in constructing buildings, so that it would be a great wrong to make any disposal of the property that would prevent it from remaining a public square. Such a place was necessary for the health of the community, a breathing space for those who were compelled by circumstances to live in the city.

was his answer now. The law gave them power to say how public property should be disposed of. The Government did not hold Cartier Square for the benefit of the city. If the city had a right in that square, then the Government had no right to dispose of it; if the city had no rights in the property, the Government had a right to dispose of it. If the hon. gentleman knew the city had rights in it, and was correct, then the Government could not violate the law of the land; but if the hon. gentleman was wrong, and the people had no rights, it was the duty of the Government to dispose of the property as they thought proper in the public interests. The people of Ottawa had no more right to the property of the Government in this city than in any other part of the Dominion, and he did not think it was the duty of the Government to give a public park to the city, simply because a few parties had to reside there. With regard to Major's Hill, the Government had a right to dispose of it as they had done. They had given it on a conditional lease to the city of Ottawa-on condition of making certain improvements which necessitated the expenditure of $15,000, and the Government retained the right to resume the property any time they liked. He did not think it was in the public interest that Major's Hill should be sold or divided into town lots. It was close too the Public Buildings, and he considered that it was necessary for their safety that it should not be built up.

Mr. WRIGHT (Pontiac) said a large number of people were interested in this property, and he thought he was entitled to an answer.

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said it was utterly impossible for him to give any other answer than that he had already given. They had no plan with regard to the sale of the property to make public.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER held that the Government had no right to dispose of public property without the consent of Parliament.

Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said he did

not think the hon. member for Cumberland was serious in his statement that the Government had not the

The late Administration had, in an instance which related to the city of London, acted in a manner similar to the present Government, showing that their views in this regard were the same; he had no doubt that other such instances existed.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER replied that with reference to Major's Hill, the Government had abused its power, having absolutely disposed of an extensive area of public property which would have brought a great sum of money, if sold in the ordinary way, for the whole people of this country to whom it belonged. Five miles of railthe hon. gentleman who sat along side way had been given away; and had the Minister of Justice power to do

this?

Hon. Mr. BLAKE-I do not know anything about it.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER-Then the hon. gentleman had shut his eyes at it, for the Minister of Public Works by his own hand, without the consent of Parliament, had made a contract giving away five miles of railway, and had passed an Order in Council, without any reference to Parliament and without having a single line stating that his action was subject to the approval of Parliament. What was more, the Administration had no power to touch out authority to give it away. one dollar of the people's money withThe Government had also bound itself to relay five miles of railway.

An Hon. Gentleman - With steel rails.

Hon. Mr. TUPPER-Not until they were laid were they so-having been stolen. I suppose that then they were

"steal" rails.

Hon. Mr. BLAKE-The hon. gentleman's illustrations are like all his