to that problem,-it would appear to me, I say, rather more courteous to say less about our regret at what we consider the defects in the scheme which they have propounded. I think this is the more necessary, taking it in connection with my friend Dr Candlish's speech; because it is plain that we are in this position,—that we are in the position of a Church which has commenced an educational system of its own; and as Government feel that it is their duty also to extend education to the people, and as they are willing to co-operate with such bodies as are engaged in the same enterprise, I have great doubt as to what will be the advantages of any co-operation with Government, unless that co-operation is based upon a system of mutual confidence between them; and it will not do, in my humble opinion, to express our regret; or, rather, that it would be infinitely better for us to withhold our feelings of regret, if we are really disposed, as I believe we are, to take advantage of that boon which the Government propose to offer to us. (Hear.) I think it would be better to lay aside all these doubts and fears, and to say to Government, that as long as you do not interfere with our schools, so long as you require merely testimonials that we teach religion in these schools, and so long as you allow us inspectors of our own suggesting,- -SO long will we join kindly and cordially with you. (Hear.) Now, my friend Dr Candlish said, with reference to the peculiarities of Scotland, that there were many things to justify and encourage Government to institute a system peculiar to this country; and I will say, even under the present system, on its more limited application, that the Government do so deal on that principle with Scotland, that they encourage us to hope that they may extend it still farther; for it will be in the recollection of the Assembly, that when grants were made by Government to the building of schools, they did make an exception in favour of Scotland, where there were no schools in connection with the British and Foreign School Society, or the National School Society. (Hear.) It is merely the extending of that exception, or adopting Minutes of Council suitable to the circumstances of this country, that will enable us to hope for a system, conducted, I trust, under some Board or other in which this country will have confidence, that may be the means of providing Scotland with a sound, wholesome, and scriptural education. (Hear.) I have great satisfaction, indeed, in the efforts which have been made by this Church to discharge what appears to me to be the paramount duty of a Church in providing for the education of the youth by a system which, considering the circumstances in which we are placed, and the many obstacles which devolved upon us at the time of the Disruption, and which we are still to some extent obliged to sustain, I must say I cannot but look forward with confidence to the hope expressed by Dr Candlish of our being able to maintain a system of education such as that we would desire to see in connection with every Free church. (Applause.) And, therefore, if the Government do come forward without interfering with our testimony or our principles, and express themselves ready to aid us in the great work of education, I must say, with great deference to the gentlemen who expressed an opposite opinion, with great deference to their feelings and scruples,-I think it would be sacrificing the substance for the shadow if we did not accept it. (Applause.)

Dr CUNNINGHAM said, I certainly do not mean to enter into the discussion of this question at any length, or to advert to many of the great general principles which, without much straining, have been brought before our consideration in the resolutions which have been proposed for our adoption. I mean to confine myself almost wholly to an observation or two upon the remarks which have now fallen from our respected friend Mr Speirs, especially with some hope of somewhat explaining or removing the only difficulty which he seemed to feel in the way of giving his entire and cordial concurrence to the resolutions which have been laid before us. The point in regard to which he seemed to feel some difficulty was this, that in the fourth resolution there is a very plain indication of a certain measure of dissatisfaction with one feature of the Government Scheme, namely, that while professedly based on religious grounds, and requiring as a part of its fundamental arrangements that religious instruction must be given in all schools aided by them, there is not manifested a due regard to those distinctions which we hold to be so important between sound and unsound religion. (Hear, hear.) Every body, of course, will agree with Mr Speirs in think ing, that in the existing condition of the community, the adjustment of that matter is attended with no small difficulty. But I do not think that that excuses us from fairly and manfully considering the Government Scheme as it stands, and expressing plainly,

but courteously, any feelings of difficulty, or objections, which we may have to any of its provisions-(hear, hear),--and I do not think that there is anything to prevent our doing so, even were it true, as Mr Speirs has alleged, that we were not able to suggest any solution of the difficulty. Even if no solution of the difficulty could be suggested by us or by any other party, it would still be our duty to look at the Government Scheme fairly and manfully on its own merits, and to pronounce the opinion in regard to its arrangements which we consider to be justified by a fair and impartial examination of it. I think that there is one feature in the Government Scheme of which we cannot approve. There is a difficulty in reference to it, which, with the best disposition to get over it, on many of those general grounds to which our attention has been directed, I am not able to get over, namely, that the Government, in the regulations which they have laid down for managing this matter, have taken upon themselves a certain measure of responsibility for the religious education which is to be communicated. I do not see how that difficulty is to be got over. They have introduced religion in their scheme, they have made it an essential part of their arrangements; and that being the case, I think we are bound to follow up the introduction of the religious element, by applying to that element the only standard by which any religious matter ought to be examined and estimated. (Hear, hear.) No doubt it is a great and important principle, taken in the abstract, on which the scheme is based, that education ought to be conducted on religious grounds, and ought to be pervaded by religious principles; but while we concur in that general thesis, we come immediately, if the matter is to be farther discussed, and if it is to be carried out practically, to ask what is the religion that is to be countenanced and assisted; and if we find a radical defect there, we are called upon to apply to it the right standard; and, according to its conformity or disconformity with that standard we must approve or condemn it. Now, I do not well see how, by any process of fair argument, it can be shewn that the Government do not take, under this scheme, a certain measure of responsibility for the whole religious instruction that can be communicated in the schools they aid. I need not dwell upon this, seeing that it was put so clearly and unanswerably, I think, by Dr Candlish, in his statement in the forenoon, that the Government make it an essential provision in their scheme, that in all the schools aided by them, some religion should be taught; and then, before they can regard a school as being fully entitled to the benefit of their scheme, they require a certificate from the parties more immediately concerned, that religion, no matter of what kind, is taught in it. (Hear, hear.) Now, I think that we are called upon to object to that; and I think that we can do so with the more reason and propriety, because, what seemed to escape the observation of Mr Speirs, we plainly enough hint at a solution of the difficulty. Our objection lies in this, that the Government have so constructed the regulations of this scheme, that they make themselves responsible for the religious instruction communicated in all the schools which they aid, whether it be sound religious instruction or not. The solution of the difficulty is just surely and obviously this, that they should have so constructed their scheme at the first, as not to take the responsibility for the religious instruction that should be communicated in their schools,-in other words, that they should have so regulated their measure, as just to afford secular education,-the capacity of reading and writing, and the ordinary elements of mental culture, and not to take upon themselves the responsibility of the religious instruction. The religious instruction might have been left to be communicated by other parties on their own responsibility. (Hear, hear.) Now, I think that this is plainly enough suggested in the latter part of the fourth resolution submitted by Dr Candlish; and every one will see that that is materially different from the position which the Government now occupy in regard to this whole matter. At present they require that religious instruction shall be communicated, but they make no provision as to what the nature of that religious instruction shall be. (Hear.) They will just as readily and willingly, under this scheme, sustain an attestation from a Socinian body of managers that the religious department in their school has been conducted to their satisfaction, as they will sustain a certificate from a body of evangelical Dissenters, that in their school the religion has been conducted to their satisfaction; and thereby they bring themselves in to be responsible for this, that Socinian education is an essentially sound religious education, which may be lawfully promoted and assisted at the expense of this Christian nation. (Hear, hear.) Now, this being

Y

the case, they might just take up this ground, a ground which, I must say, in the existing condition of the community, is a preferable one, and one that is free from any serious objection in point of principle. They profess,-they do so in this scheme,that they think that all education ought to be conducted on religious grounds, and pervaded by religious principle. And then they might farther say,-and this is a position which I think would also be justifiable,—that in the existing condition of the community, it does not seem possible for the Government to promote, by means of the national resources, education based on sound religious and scriptural principles. Then they could go a step farther, and say, that in these circumstances, notwithstanding the radical defect to which they feel their scheme would be subject, it is of so much importance to promote the general education of the community, that they would still be willing to give some assistance out of the national resources for communicating secular education, while they leave to others the responsibility of communicating religious education as they think proper, and decline to take that responsibility on their own shoulders. In this course any Government could not be greatly blamed in the existing condition of the community, and would evade the responsibility which at present, under their Scheme, they seem to me to take upon their own shoulders. (Hear, hear.) Now, I think that it is of some importance that we should suggest to Government the propriety of examining this matter,-whether this be not, upon the whole, in the existing circumstances of the country, a principle that is less objectionable, that is substantially free from any serious objection,-and just that by which they ought to be guided in their intended provision for the education of Papists. (Hear, hear.) I have no objection whatever that Papists and Socinians should be aided in receiving education out of the resources of this empire. I think they ought to receive that aid. (Hear, hear.) I think that it is the duty of the Government of Great Britain to provide, if possible, that the Popish children of the community should be all educated. Of course, neither I, nor any other member of this House, could ever become a consenting party to the funds of the nation being employed in teaching Popery or Socinianism. (Hear, hear.) These, I think, are clear grounds; and if they are so, and if they can be fully defended, then we seem to be shut up, in these circumstances, unless we can beat down one or other of the alternatives; and, for my own part, I am not prepared to abandon either of them. We seem to be shut up to this, that, upon the whole, in existing circumstances, the least objectionable mode of dealing with the matter is this, that the Government, while professing their sense of the importance of religious education, should decline to take the responsibility of communicating it, while, at the same time, they would also, with equal plainness, declare that they are ready and willing to aid the efforts of others in promoting the education of all classes of the community who need education, and who are willing to take it in that way. In this way I think it is of some importance, if the principle is a sound one, and adapted to the existing condition of the community, that while, on the one hand, we feel ourselves shut up to the necessity of recording some expression of disapprobation of the Government having undertaken the responsibility of the religious instruction of the schools, while yet, with that responsibility lying upon them as a fundamental part of their plan, they have not, in our judgment, made adequate provision for the instruction of those for whom they became responsible, in sound principles; we should, on the other hand, suggest to them the propriety of considering whether, in revising the existing scheme, and still more in making those arrangements which we know they have yet to make for providing some measure for giving education to Papists, they might not adopt the sounder and more unobjectionable course, by refusing to take upon themselves, as representing the nation, the responsibility of teaching Popery and Socinianism, and to confine themselves to aiding the efforts of those who are desirous to communicate the benefits of an ordinary secular education to Papists and Socinians. (Hear, hear.) I have, in conclusion, to remark, that we are placed in somewhat peculiar circumstances this evening. We ought to have had three motions before us. We have had only two as yet, but probably we will have a third one; for three different sets of views have been submitted to us in connection with this matter, two of which I think are extremes, and the third, what I would call the golden mean, is embodied in the resolutions proposed by Dr Candlish. (Hear, hear.) We have heard some members, the tenor of whose observations seems to me to go to this, that they think that we should express no dis

approbation whatever of any part of the Government Scheme, but that we should cordially approve of the whole of it. We have even heard a minister of this Church setting forth that the great glory of the Government Scheme was, that it was pervaded by religion,— -as if a mere assent to that general proposition as an abstract thesis was to cover all the manifest disregard implied of any respect as to what religion is, or what is the kind of religion communicated. (Applause.) One extreme professes to stand on the ground of high principle- (laughter)—and the other professes to stand on the ground of common sense. (Renewed laughter.) These seem to be the distinctive names which they assume. I confess it does seem to me that the ground taken up by the men of high principle is somewhat deficient, I will not say in common sense, but in what I will call practical wisdom. (Hear, hear.) It does proceed upon views and impressions which, I think, are not suited to the actual position we occupy, and the duties which God in his providence would seem to have called us to discharge. It also seems to me that the common-sense men-( -(a laugh) -the other extreme in this series,-do not indicate quite so much regard for high principle as is, I think, becoming the members of this Assembly. I think that the resolutions proposed by Dr Candlish for our adoption combine both the sound principle, in virtue of which we must protest against everything that is objectionable in point of principle in the scheme, and also the common sense, in virtue of which we feel that, in the circumstances in which we are placed, to discharge the duty of testifying against what is objectionable does not stand in the way, and should not stand in the way, of our availing ourselves of the assistance which we may derive from that quarter for promoting a great national object, and which we feel ourselves constrained, by the strongest obligations, to aim at. (Great applause.)

Mr SMITH, in explanation, disclaimed having made the statement that the crowning glory of the Government scheme was, that was pervaded by religion. What he had said was, that the glory of the measure was that it was not of an ungodly character. Mr Sheriff MONTEITH said, that he might perhaps have found it necessary to go into some detail on this subject, but for the very full explanation which had been given by his learned friend, with every word of which he cordially concurred. He also concurred in the principles laid down by his friend Dr Cunningham, although he had some doubts how far he (Dr Cunningham) was right in his strictures on some parts of the existing resolutions of the Privy Council. But he thought it was of so much importance that the House should be unanimous on this great question, that he was very much disposed to waive anything that could be waived consistently with principle, for the purpose of attaining that desirable end. (Hear.) And he must say that he congratulated the House and the country upon the spirit in which this question had been discussed in that Assembly, and which made it stand in proud contrast to any other Assembly in which the question had been discussed in the united empire. (Hear, hear.) For although there had been some warm expressions uttered, he was not aware of one expression having fallen from any member of the House which might not be stated in the face of day, without reflecting discredit on the Free Church. (Hear, hear.) Now, the resolutions proposed by Dr Candlish appeared to him to resolve themselves into three points. In the first place, are we to go to Government with a proposal for a specific measure, applicable to Scotland, and different from that proposed for the united empire? His friend Mr Speirs had stated that he did not believe that the regulations of the Privy Council were intended to apply to Scotland. His learned friend had probably much better information than any of them upon that subject, but he (Mr M.) confessed that this had not been his understanding on that point. His understanding unquestionably had been, that in the present state of the matter, these regulations were intended to apply to Scotland. He believed that the Government were most desirous to educate the people, and that in carrying out this desire, they had been led, by a spirit of conciliation, to attempt to do it in such a manner as they thought would be least offensive to the religious feelings of the community. He had no doubt, therefore, that they would acquiesce at once in any proposal which might meet the views and feelings of the people of Scotland, consistently with the great principle which actuated them—namely, the principle of extending education to the whole body of the people. He, therefore, felt perfectly assured, that if they went to Government with the proposal on this subject which was. contained in these resolutions, they would find they were met by a willing Government.

(Hear, hear.) In regard to the second and third of these resolutions, embodying that proposal, he could have no doubt, because we stand on the question of education in Scotland, on a different basis altogether from England. (Hear.) We all hold the same Confession of Faith; we all profess the same principles of religion, with the exception of a mere vanishing quantity; and he must say, that in dealing with a great question like the present, involving results so important to the people of this land, they were not to be driven into a corner by mere exceptional differences as to principles which were held in common by ninety-nine hundredths of the whole people of Scotland. (Hear, hear.) And, therefore, the only objection he had-and he did not wish to mince matters before the Assembly-the only objection he had to the course pursued by the Government in reference to this measure was, that there was too much desire to conciliate what the Government might believe to be the religious prepossessions and inclinations of the people. He agreed with Dr Cunningham in thinking that they had fallen into an essential error in point of principle; because he considered that in the existing state of religious opinion, it is impossible for the Government of the country to undertake the religious education of the people, and that they should not attempt to do anything with the view of infusing the religious element into popular education, and that because of the religion which ought to be acknowledged and taught. It is a plain and obvious principle, that we, as a Church and as an Assembly, do not know what we can hold to be religion, if it be not the true religion of the Evangel of the Lord Jesus Christ. But, considering the multiplicity of sects and opinions into which the country is broken up, it is absolutely out of the question for Government to institute any scheme of education based on such a principle as this; and for this plain reason, that we all know that if Government were to establish a religious education-for instance, pregnant with Presbyterianism and Free Church principles-we, of course, would gladly go into it; but I would like to know if four-fifths of the community would not make that the very reason for objecting to receive education at the hands of Government. It is, therefore, absolutely impossible for the Government to meddle with the religious element in this question to any good purpose; and I confess that I would like the present measure infinitely better if it did not make the attempt. At the same time, I think it would be very ungracious in us to meet Government with the cold shoulder, seeing that, if they have erred in this respect, it has arisen from a desire to meet the religious feelings of the country. We all know quite well what would have been the consequence in certain quarters if Government had not recognised religion in the measure. The cry of an infidel scheme would have been raised against them; and Government had not the courage to face that cry. (Hear.) If I have any objection at all to the course which Government are pursuing on this subject, it is, that they have not sufficient confidence in great fundamental principles,-that they have not sufficient confidence in the good sense of the people of the country, to risk a measure of sound principle(hear, hear)—and that they set their sails too much to catch the popular breeze(hear, hear, hear) to catch the breeze of popular prejudice, and they have in that way brought themselves into difficulties. (Loud cheers.) Now, he (Mr M.) cordially concurred with Dr Candlish in the proposal to go to Government to ask them to give us a modified plan for Scotland. He believed we would get such a modified plan. (Hear, hear.) And if such a plan was conceded by the Government, Scotland would stand on a vantage-ground for the education of the people, on which no nation on the civilized earth now stood. (Cheers.) I would congratulate this Assembly,-I would congratulate the country, on the hour in which our Education Committee is brought into communication with her Majesty's Government on the subject of this proposal. I have good reason to believe, from a high quarter, that you will obtain such a measure. I allude, in particular, to an illustrious member of the Government, and a member also of this House, who has been in communication on this subject with a member of the Privy Council; and on his authority I have no hesitation in stating,-I have not the shadow of a doubt, upon that authority, in stating,-that you will be hailed by the Government, in coming before them with any such proposal. (Cheers.) But the question in the mean time was simply this, if the Government,-which he was very unwilling to believe, was not prepared to go into such a measure, could we still consent to take advantage of the Government grant in promoting the education of our people? He did not think there could be any difference of opinion upon that