feeling of the country was in favour of it. He trusted that out of common courtesy to the hon. Member for Birmingham, the hon. Gentleman (Mr. C. Berkeley) would withdraw his Amendment. The House again divided on the question of adjournment:-Ayes 6; Noes 51: Majority 45. Escott, B. List of the AYES. Lowther, hon. Col. Mostyn, hon. E. M. L. Pechell, Capt. Sibthorp, Col. Williams, W. TELLERS. Berkeley, C. List of the NOES. Acland, Sir T. D. Arundel and Surrey, Blackstone, W. S. Bankes, G. Bodkin, W. H. Borthwick, P. Buller, C. Craig, W. G. Cripps, W. Dickinson, F. H. Drummond, H. H. Hope, Sir J. Duckworth, Sir J. T. B. Newdegate, C. N. Oswald, A. Palmerston, Visct. Somerville, Sir W. M. TELLERS. Brotherton, J. EARL GREY moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into such Committee." The MARQUESS of LONDONDERRY said, he hoped he might be permitted to occupy a small portion of their Lordships' time on this most important military measure; and he craved with confidence their indulgent permission, because the noble Earl who introduced the measure had done him the honour in his unavoidable absence to animadvert upon and answer some points in his former address; and although he was sensible of that noble Earl's condescension, yet he thought the speech of a noble Earl (the Earl of Cardigan) on the same evening, and who was present on the last occasion, would have been far higher game for the noble Lord to have grappled with, inasmuch as it was a far better speech than his, and the noble Lord's antagonist would have been before him. However, as the speech of the noble Earl deserved every respect on his part, and as still further a most unexpected, and he must candidly say rather complicated, speech of his illustrious friend the noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington) had been delivered in that House since he presumed to raise his voice against this Bill, he now ventured to address their Lordships. The noble Earl had said, that he (the Marquess of Londonderry) considered the Bill as apart from the measures adopted in former years, whereas it was the continuation of a course of policy long pursued. He certainly to that pleaded guilty, and admitted that he had argued the Bill on the limited service alone. He did not refer to or go into all the improvements of our military interior details for twenty-five years, which the noble Earl had no more to do with than the child unborn. But he denied that he had asserted it was great presumption for Her Majesty's Government, who had not seen any service, and as civilians, to take up the subject of improvement of the Army. But he did say, that in their alterations they should be fortified by, and should have received, the advice of general officers of high service, rank, and talent in the Army. For that reason he had moved, as Mr. Yorke did in 1806, for the opinions of such general officers. The noble Earl was certainly right in stating that the Government could command such; but if he had received them, and they were favourable to his plan, would he not have pro On the Order of the Day for the re- duced them? The noble Earl, however, commitment of the Bill being read, gave his answer to his own observations, for would he deny that if he had not at the | toto, he was not inclined to say all he last squeezed out the military opinion and thought. He stated that the indirect ef vote at least of the Duke of Wellington, fect of the ten years' enlistment system on he would never have carried his Bill? And the commanding officers would be highly did not their Lordships (as the country beneficial; for, when they knew, at the and Army he was sure would admit) agree end of ten years, the soldier had the power, with him that without that great profes- if he thought fit, to leave his regiment, sional vote, which greatly neutralized every they would study much more than they other military opinion, the Bill would have now did the comfort and welfare of the solbeen lost? The drift of his (the Marquess diers, and endeavour to make them more of Londonderry's) argument, according to happy in their ranks. With great respect the noble Earl's opinion, was, that there to the noble Earl, he would tell him, as an should be no interference with the present old commanding officer, that he never was system, but to let well alone, at least as to more mistaken in his life, both as to the the introduction of limited service; but un- conduct and character of the majority of doubtedly he did not mean to disapprove of commanding officers of Her Majesty's any wise regulations and improvements the Army. Then, concluding his speech, the Commander-in-Chief of the Army and the noble Lord called on their Lordships to Government might think proper to recom- adopt the Limited Service Bill, without mend. But he wanted the sentiments of saying one single word as to its effects on the Army authorities on these monstrous the discipline, or the feelings, the jealouinnovations. He desired to have the opin- sies, the injustice, between the old soldiers ions of our illustrious field-marshals, the and the new, which it entailed on the heads of the Army, and general officers; Army. He now came to a much more exknowing that if the Army was consulted, the traordinary matter, and attended by more very large majority, ay nine-tenths, would important consequences, than the noble be against this new plan. The noble Lord, Earl's able and long oration to their Lordthen, with much eloquence, seemed to have ships. Had his noble and illustrious Friend admitted the prowess of our arms under given his opinion, or rather intimated his our invincible leader, and then he launched vote, at an early stage, it was more than into a most eloquent harangue as to the probable that his great devotion and redeeds of his predecessors for twenty-five spect for his illustrious Commander would or thirty years, and told them of regi- have enforced his silence. With the greatmental savings-banks-the change as to est possible attention he had read over and corporal punishment-the powers of gene- over again that speech, and he could only ral courts-martial restricted-imprisonment say, as an old soldier, that he cordially substituted for the lash-comforts for the embraced what he understood to be the soldier's condition in barracks-health of sentiments of the speech; but he deplored troops on their colonial service, and sup- the vote. To presume to characterize that ply of provisions-great encouragement speech was not his province. He must for good soldiers under Mr. Sidney Her- leave it in the hands of the noble and bert's Bill of 1843-regimental schools, learned Lord, and the able leader of Her &c. The practical effects of all these im- Majesty's Opposition. But he thought he provements the noble Earl most forcibly could confidently assert, that the noble and most eloquently enumerated. But what Earl opposite could not be very well satishad they to do with the actual measure of fied with the speech, though he might hug limited service, which had been tried over himself most lovingly as to the vote; while and over again, and had always failed? he (the Marquess of Londonderry), on his and the noble Lord did not, in all this part, deplored the vote, and was satisfied beautiful statement, touch the question be- that the Army should construe the opinions fore the House. It really was like a in that now celebrated speech as they quack doctor, who was called in by chance, thought proper. He might, however, now and gave a little white powder, and then be permitted to observe upon the construclaunched into all the benefits of the re- tion of that speech, and that of the right medy, and took credit for the scientific hon. Secretary at War, both advocating system of years previously pursued by the this same Bill now before their Lordships. regularly bred faculty. The noble Earl then He thought the Secretary at War followed entered into some not very complimentary up his opinions by saying " What an exobservations to commanding officers of re- cellent rural force these men of ten years giments, on which, differing with him in would make hereafter, by acting when they received their reserved pensions, if neces- | vices-worst, because it was an old experisary, behind walls and houses." Possibly ment that had over and over again failed. the right hon. Gentleman was thinking of But, if this measure was to be carried, he a French invasion, and conveying these his could not help bitterly lamenting, and new experimental levies hereafter over the all the Army, who opposed the measure, border. But to return to the Bill, and would deplore, that it had been so unfairly nothing but the Bill-his objections to it treated, and so strangely, if not cunningly, were in a few words, and so strong in his carried. In the House of Commons it was mind, that no Amendment, he thought, always introduced very late in the evening, could avert the evil. It was injurious to if not towards the morning; at no time discipline. They placed two men along- were there more than 140 Members in the side each other in the same rank and ser- House, and they were mostly Government vice in a totally different position. The placemen, and the division was not above old men might be termed the Sepoys of forty or fifty strong. The Bill was then the Army; the limited men the experi- sent up to their Lordships; and he could mental levies. There was evident preju- not but with all due respect remark, that dice to the old soldier. There was a mere in spite of the noble Duke's vote assisting chance or surmise if by re-enlistment after the Government, the Bill was carried at ten years they would get the old soldiers the second reading by a very small mato remain or not. They might lose a large jority; constituted of the votes of a certain number of them at a moment the Army's light political section, who came to the service might be most required. They rescue of the Government, although not gave to the new soldier a right of dis- one of them was pleased, any more than charge when he had voluntarily enlisted their great political head, to give the House under the present Mutiny Act, which any reasons which, he owned, he had exshould alone be held and exercised by the pected from it; and also by the aid of cercommanding officer and Commander-in-tain prelates-the right rev. the Bishop of Chief. As to arguing dissatisfaction of St. Asaph, the right rev. the Bishop of the men and desertions from the unlimited Worcester, the right rev. the Bishop of service, it was clear from returns on the Salisbury; and, he lamented personally to Table they did not exist. In seven years add, the Lord Bishop of Durham. To these there were only 2,000 for limited service, rev. personages then, and to the section and in the same period 22,000 unlimited. he had adverted to, let it be observed, the Much more might be said. It was under- Army owed this revolution. He hoped the stood that in the event of the Duke's sup-right rev. Prelates would even now give port, there would be an increase of pen- them the opinion of their military friends sions to the present Army; but he yet whom they met after their vote upon this feared that Her Majesty's Government had measure; for it was quite clear they must no intention whatever of raising the pen-have been advised and directed by them, as sions. It had been argued by the promoters of the measure that they would obtain a better description of men. Where were they to come from? Did they want them morally or physically better? Look at the Household Brigade, the finest troops in Europe. Compare those men with any others, where would be found a better description? This idea, therefore, was a perfect fallacy. He could not help, however, remarking, that even in this measure the noble Duke admitted, that though he was willing to give it a trial, yet that it was an experiment. They knew, as a matter of history now, that they had been and were blessed with a Government of "all the talents." He thought that they were now about to be again blessed with one of "all the experiments." They had experiments in Irish Poor Laws, in finance, in railways, and, last and worst of all, in Army ser he was sure none of the right rev. Bench would stand up in their places and admit they knew anything, or ever did know anything, of a soldier, of his discipline in camp, quarters, or in the field, or of his feelings as to the service in which he was engaged. The noble Marquess concluded by moving to leave out "now," and insert “ this day six months." The EARL of CARDIGAN confessed that it was very painful to him to offer any opposition to a Bill connected with the Army which had received the support of the noble Duke; and he would have felt greater pain were it not that he recollected the very qualified support which the noble Duke gave to it in his speech. One of the avowed objects was to enlist into the Army a superior class of recruits, and yet the noble Duke did not consider that such would be its result; whilst the other object EARL GREY said, that as he did not understand that the noble Marquess or the noble Earl who had addressed their Lordships in opposition to the Bill, intended to oppose it in a substantive manner, he would not occupy time in repeating arguments in reply which had already been addressed to their Lordships. Instead, therefore, of repeating any argument which had been previously used, he would mention one fact which had come to his knowledge since the measure had been discussed. There was now serving a gallant officer, who, in consequence of his good conduct as a private and a non-commissioned officer, had received a commission without purchase; and his opinion having been asked of the proposed measure, his answer was, "All that I can say is, I have been all my life in the Army, but I never enlisted for life; I was a seven years' man. was to make the Army more popular; but, | as a military man he had not seen much considering the recent increase in the active service; and, after a period of thirty Army, and the readiness with which the years of peace, few officers, comparatively ranks were filled, their Lordships would speaking, could bring the experience which not suppose that the Army as it existed was gained in a time of war to bear upon was an unpopular force. It must be re- such a question. But let the weight be membered that the British Army, unlike what it might which was attached to his other armies, was dispersed all over the opinions, they were the honest opinions of world, and he could not see how the Bill a Member of their Lordships' House, and could be carried out when the term of ser- of one who had sincerely at heart the welvice expired; certainly, it could not be fare of that profession to which he had the accomplished without great expense, and honour to belong. certainly not without great inconvenience. When the Bill was in force, the changes in colonies must be more frequent than at present; this would involve great expense, and it was the duty of Parliament to consider whether such an expenditure was proper or necessary. Was the battalion to which the men belonged to lose its term of colonial service? If so, it would create the greatest possible confusion; and if their places were to be filled by draughts from other regiments, it would destroy the esprit de corps. With regard to the pensions, there was no doubt that the addition of 2d. to the 6d. would be considered a boon to the Army; and if the Government were anxious to make the Army still more popular than at present, they would give fair rewards for services, and enable the soldiers to settle down afterwards. He thought it desirable to tie the men down to good conduct by the interest they felt in their pensions. But if they dispersed a discontented military body over the country, they would find it formidable for mischief, and an assemblage formed from them would be more difficult to deal with than the ordinary population. He thought that all the advantages of the proposed plan, without its manifold disadvantages, might have been attained by effecting improvements in the condition of the soldier. At all events, if a limit were resolved upon, he thought the first period should be longer, say fourteen years, and the second shorter, say seven years. At the end of the first period the soldier would have arrived at a time of life which admirably adapted him for pursuing his profession; and were good encouragement offered, his belief was that in the majority of cases the soldier would re-enlist. As to the officers, the great majority were opposed to the Bill-he believed that, generally speaking, the officers looked upon it as a dangerous and visionary measure. He did not presume to think that his opinion would have the slightest weight with their Lordships. He was well aware that VOL. XCII. Third VISCOUNT COMBERMERE said, that this was only a solitary instance out of 82,000; and he disapproved of the Bill. Amendment withdrawn. House in Committee. On Clause 1 being read, The EARL of LUCAN moved, as an Amendment, that twelve years' service be substituted for ten years in the infantry, and fourteen years for twelve in the cavalry, artillery, or other ordnance corps. It might appear a small matter to propose an increase of two years to the period of service; but, in his opinion, it was of great importance. The last two years of a twelve years' service were the most valuable portion of the whole period. In making this proposition, he disclaimed on his part, and he thought he might do so on the part of the officers of the military profession generally, being actuated by any party spirit whatever. The principle of the Bill having been adopted by the House of Commons, and by their Lordships, all he now sought was to make the measure as little mischievous as possible. He entreated their Lordships, that while passing this 2 L Bill they would not deprive the country of the services of the old soldier, whose continuance in the Army was absolutely necessary to its very existence. every reason to believe that you will retain the old soldiers in the Army under the Bill as it stands. I stated my reasons on that occasion, and I only revert to them now to state that they have not been at all shaken by what has passed during this debate. My opinion is, that the advantages held out to soldiers by the warrants issued by Her Majesty and the late Sovereign, which ensured good conduct as far as it can be ensured by law, and which give to the soldiers that which is best for them-the habits of good conduct-more especially by the warrant recently issued, securing to a man at the end of his twenty or twentyone years' service, together with the goodservice money which he may have received during the twenty or twenty-one years, a pension amounting altogether to 1s. a day that these advantages do give us every reason to believe that the services of the old soldiers will be retained with their regiments; and that being the case, I think that that which it is most desirable to retain will be retained for Her Majesty's service. I sincerely wish that this new state of things in the Army may enable Her Majesty's Government and the officers in command to make a discharge from the Army considered a punishment. That is a most desirable object and this feeling does EARL GREY observed, that those noble Lords who did him the honour to listen to the speech he delivered on moving the second reading of this Bill, would recollect that he declared it to be his wish that such a system should be introduced into the Army as should make the being discharged from the service considered not as a reward, but as a punishment. That was the main object and scope of the whole Bill. He wished it to be considered a reward of merit to be allowed to continue in the Army, rather than a punishment to be retained in it. This principle, he conceived, applied to the Amendment now proposed by the noble Earl. When a man had served for a period of ten years, and had not proved to be a good soldier, it was perfectly just that the commanding officer should have it in his power to say to such a man-" I will not allow you to continue with us. The bar gain was for ten years. It is at an end; you may go and seek a livelihood somewhere else. This to a man who had only served ten years, while it was just, would not be severe, because it might be fairly presumed that he would then be in the prime of life, and capable of getting a live-exist in two or three regiments. It exists, lihood in some other occupation. But it I believe, in the troops which are immewould be a very different thing if the pe- diately about Her Majesty's person. I riod of service were to be prolonged, and wish to see the same object attained in all the man were to be retained in the Army parts of the service; and the system proto a time of life when he would not be qua- posed by this Bill does, I think, give a lified to provide for himself in any other prospect that it may be attained. Then pursuit. If they were to adopt this mea- the noble Earl comes and says that it may sure at all, he did not see any advantage be attained by twelve years as well as ten; that was to be derived from the Amend- and another noble Lord, a noble Friend of ment of the noble Earl. If they were to mine, has another curiosity of his own-by try the experiment of limited enlistment, which he thinks the same object may be let them try it fairly, as he believed it would attained. My Lords, there may be many be under this measure. modes by which it may be accomplished; but this is the mode proposed by Her Majesty's Government, and adopted by the other House of Parliament, and therefore Į recommend your Lordships to adhere to the mode proposed in the Bill now before you. I do not think the noble Lord has made VISCOUNT COMBERMERE was in favour of the Amendment. At the end of ten years a man might be turned adrift without good reason; and, if he had a wife and children, they would be looked upon as an encumbrance. What would become of a man in such circumstances as that, without any case for his proposition; I beg your out a pension, and, in all probability, without any means of supporting himself? The DUKE of WELLINGTON said: I shall confine myself to the Amendment of the noble Earl, because on a former occasion I stated my reasons for thinking that your Lordships might safely adopt the principles of this Bill, and that there is Lordships to keep that object steadily in your view, the object of retaining the old soldiers in your service during the whole time that they are capable of rendering service, that is, until they are forty years of age, and my opinion is that that may be attained as well with ten as twelve years. Make dismissal a serious punishment, and |