what he had already said, to ask the noble Duke if he thought it would be safe to send soldiers home, and place them on board ship, without placing them under any military authority or control? It might be thought that the noble and gallant Duke had already given his sanction to this part of the Bill; but he could not bring himself to believe this till he heard it from the noble Duke himself. EARL GREY said, before the noble Duke answered the question, he wished to make a single remark. The question put by the noble Lord was not one that was likely to arise in practice, because it should be recollected that by the 4th Clause it was provided that the commanding officer could direct the service of the soldier to be prolonged, after the term should expire, to a period not exceeding two years, which was quite long enough to enable the Govern Iment to have the men sent home. The DUKE of WELLINGTON said, he thought it would be exceedingly inconvenient to discharge soldiers in India, and not leave them under the control of military commanders. He conceived it would be most necessary that they should remain under the control of their usual commanders until they reached their proper port of embarkation; and, above all things, he deprecated soldiers being sent home on board ship without being kept, and continued under the direction and control of their usual commanders, or, at least, under some military discipline. No doubt, the men when they quitted the Army ought to be sent home; but there would be great inconvenience in their being set free from military restraint until they reached this country. The Clause was understood to be postponed. Remaining clauses agreed to, as were the schedule and the preamble of the Bill. House resumed. The following Protest was entered on the 1. Because an attempt to introduce limited service was first proposed in 1713. The system, or plan, lasted two years, and was abandoned from its total failure. It was tried, however, again in 1775, and continued to the end of the war, but was unsuccessful in its operations during the American war. In later periods-in 1806it was resorted to in another form of periods of limited service; but signally and completely dis appointed the expectations that were formed of the measure to obtain more recruits and a better class of men; and in the midst of the war in the Peninsula much inconvenience and disorder might have arisen but for the foresight and precaution of the Great Commander-the limited service men being then his best troops, who had served discharge; and had not very large bounties been seven or eight years, and who had a right to their given they might have been lost to the Army, and their loss would have been most fatal. 2. Because whilst it is most desirable to adopt every possible measure for improving the comforts, and the social and the moral conditions of our soldiers, it is highly injudicious and inexpedient to attempt experiments (which are avowed as such), and which experiments may tend to shake the good feelings now existing, and the discipline hitherto prevailing in the British Army, which never at any moment in history stood higher for its warlike achievements and admirable conduct. 3. Because while it is admitted from the very highest authority that the old soldiers of the British Army give to it all its perfection and matchless excellence, it is manifest that the present Army Service Bill presents a risk, and offers an occasion, of losing the very men, who, after their service of ten years, become the most valuable, and who still may be in the prime of lifefatigue and military service. from thirty to forty-for all purposes of hard It is therefore highly impolitic to hazard this experiment, and far more judicious to retain the present regulations, which allow all soldiers, under a most libetheir discharge by the recommendation of their ral plan, and with good characters, to receive officers and the decision of the Commander-inChief. 4. Because, as has been clearly and unanswerably shown, great inconvenience must result to our colonial service from the plan now proposed; and especially in the minutia of every regimental arrangement. If men had six or eight months to serve, and were ordered out to India, that circumstance might occasion a degree of discontent among them. The Army in the East, as structions to the eligibility of this measure; and it has been ably shown, presents many further ob will be necessary when it shall be in full operation, and one-tenth annually of 72,000 men (our average force serving in the colonies) shall be entitled to discharge, and must be brought home, to make frequent reliefs of corps, at great difficulty and inconvenience. "Finally, because the Government must either have a most extraordinary confidence in themselves, or expect an unlimited confidence from others, if they imagine that a measure of such magnitude, sanctioning changes so hazardous and on such fanciful theories, and, above all, against the opinions of nine-tenths of the British Army, can be carried into effect without stronger and more cogent reasons than have hitherto been advanced by them for these new experiments under their Army Service Bill in the British Army. VANE LONDONDERRY. POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. On the Motion that this Bill be now read 3a. LORD MONTEAGLE said, that he did not rise for the purpose of raising any ob-relief he would have been disfranchised. jection to proceeding with the Bill at the By the Reform Act, also, it was provided stage to which it had now attained; but he that no person should be allowed to register begged to draw their Lordships' attention as a voter who should have received relief to the effect which this measure was likely at any time during the twelve months to have on the clergy of the Established preceding registration. In considering Church of England in Ireland. He be- that question, it should not be said that it lieved, that not merely their interest but was an interference with the privileges of their actual existence must depend on the the other House. He knew that it was; alteration of this Bill. He would beg to but in a matter like that, where the overstate to their Lordships the substance of a looking of the effects might cause the disletter which he had received from a clergy- franchisement of the great body of electors man of the diocese of Lismore, who had in Ireland, it was necessary that it should been for thirty years the incumbent of a be looked to. He had given notice that parish in which the tithe rent-charge was he would call the attention of Her Majes1947. a year. That income was payable ty's Ministers to the question; and he half-yearly, in May and November; and it wished, through the medium of the pubwas stated in the letter that the poor-rate licity which the proceedings of that House in the electoral division under the tempo- received, to call the attention of the other rary Act was 10s. 10d. for the half year. House of Parliament to it. It was a matThe consequence would be, that the ter which ought to be considered at once rev. gentleman would, if such a rate was and decided on, especially on the eve of continued, be left without a single farthing a general election. The third point to of income to pay his curate, or for the sup- which he would direct their Lordships' atport of his family. He believed that that tention was the fact that he did not think was not a solitary instance of the hardship they had sufficiently considered the effects to which clergymen would be subjected. of the Bill upon the general peace and But their Lordships could not imagine what tranquillity of the country. They would would be the operation of the Bill unless legalize by it the collection of large assemthey ascertained the actual amount of blies of the people, that it would be imposcharge upon each electoral division. He sible to disperse without the active aid of believed the operation of the measure the constabulary. They should recollect would be such as their Lordships had no that large bodies of distressed people asidea of. He thought it would be found to sembled together were very indiscriminate include everything that was most objec- in the object of their anger, and that the tionable in the endowment of the Irish very persons who had been the instruclergy, together with everything that was ments of relief, and the channels through objectionable in the voluntary system. which the munificence of Parliament had Not that he would have it supposed that he flowed to the Irish poor, had been, in objected to the principle of endowment of many instances, objects of attack and ill the Roman Catholic clergy. He wished usage. They should remember that in all their Lordships had the wisdom to endow cases of famine and riots arising from disthe Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland. It tress, in every part of the world, those was a measure most needed, and it was one riotings had led, not to the seizure merely which they must pass at last. The next of food for the suffering and destitute, but point to which he would call their Lord- to the actual destruction of those provisions ships' attention was the necessity that they which had been stored for their necessities, should see the consequences of the Bill through the infuriated ignorance of the before them, as well as of the temporary sufferers themselves. The most undivimeasure of relief, so far as regarded the ded and unenviable responsibility of the elective franchise in Ireland. They should measure, as it stood, rested upon Her Marecollect, that the fact of receiving relief jesty's advisers. Had the Amendments disfranchised the recipient. By the words proposed in that House been adopted and of an Act still in force, it was declared allowed to remain a part of the Bill, he that relief given to a militiaman should not thought it would have been much better; disfranchise him, provided he at the time but in that case, if it had failed in its opewas engaged in actual service, thereby ration, the blame would have been thrown conveying the inference, or rather more upon the Lords, and not upon the Governthan an inference, that if he had not been ment. in actual service at the time of receiving The EARL of WICKLOW, if he could believe the operation of the Bill would have | landlord could deduct from the tithe the same effect as that produced by the rent-charge no more than the 20s., that Temporary Relief Act, would think it one being the whole rent-charge the landlord of the most grievous calamities that had would actually remain liable for, and be ever happened to the country. He re- out of pocket the remaining 5s. or 20s. gretted that the Amendments which he as the rate happened to be 25s. or 40s. had proposed had not been adopted; but he in the pound. So that there was the adbelieved there were sufficient safeguards in vantage on the part of the clergy that the Bill already to prevent those ruinous they would receive nothing, whilst the effects to the clergy which his noble Friend landlord would receive nothing and be near him apprehended. minus 58. additional. In the present hopeless, helpless condition of Ireland, the clergy had nothing to complain of. With regard to the electoral franchise, whatever might be the result, and whether the whole of the Irish constituencies were, as his noble Friend anticipated, to be disfranchised or not by the operation of this measure, he hoped to heaven their Lordships would never adopt the principle of having a pauper constituency. The EARL of LUCAN made a few observations which were inaudible. The EARL of CLANCARTY said, there was this difference between the temporary and the permanent measure, that by the Temporary Relief Act relief was given in food only, whereas by the permanent Act relief was to be given out of the workhouse in money as well as food. There was, besides, under the temporary Act, a very valuable aid given to private benevolence, for those sums subscribed by voluntary contribution, and forwarded to the relief committees, were met by equal sums contributed from the national resources. Under the permanent Act, no such assistance would be given, so that noble Lords need not be so sanguine as to its operation. He had been greatly surprised to find, by a Bill which had been introduced into their Lordships' House, that a power of removing Irish paupers was to be given to England and Scotland, whilst no such power of removing English or Scotch paupers was to be given to Ireland. The measure appeared to be one calculated for the relief of English towns, not of Irish distress. LORD BEAUMONT believed that the whole complaint made by the Irish clergy regarding the operation of the Bill upon their interests was, that they were to be rated upon the gross amount of their incomes, and not upon the net amount. If that were the case-and he did not think they were under any other peculiar disadvantage-their position would be this: if the whole amount of the poor-rates for the year were 20s. in the pound, the clergy would receive just nothing for themselves, the whole amount of their rent-charge being absorbed; but if the rates should amount to, say 25s. in the pound, during the whole course of the year, the clergyman would be no worse off. But how stood the landlord? The tenant having power to deduct one-half the poundage of the rate from his rent, he would do so till the rate exceeded 40s. in the pound; while the The EARL GREY said, that that was the third time on which the Bill had been discussed; he would, therefore, not go into any of the questions which had been raised regarding it, further than to protest against the assertion of the noble Earl opposite, that any measure had been brought into that House with the object of relieving English towns at the expense of Ireland. Looking at the condition of Ireland only, and not looking to the state of any place in England, he was convinced of the necessity of the measure. proposition had been made for Ireland only, and the necessity for something of the kind was so pressing that they should not shrink from its adoption. He would not go into the other questions that had been raised. As to the complaints of the clergy, they would point rather to the necessity for an amendment in the Church Temporalities Act, than to any alteration in the Bill before their Lordships. And as to the question of the franchise, he quite agreed with his noble Friend behind him in thinking that it would be an act of insanity to erect a pauper constituency. The other matters he was not in a situation to enter into. After the Bill had been read a third time, the Amendments might be discussed in their proper order; and he therefore trusted their Lordships would allow the third reading to take place. The MARQUESS of HEADFORT said, that he had voted that the Bill be permanent, because he felt that some measure of the kind was essential in the present condition of Ireland; and because he was satisfied, after what had taken place, that a temporary measure would be comparatively useless. He deprecated the dependence on England which had hitherto taken place; but he felt that a great debt of gratitude was owing to England for the exertions which this country had made for the relief of Ireland. Even the repealer could hardly, after what had taken place, use the term "Saxon" as a word of reproach. He hoped all sects and classes would unite to carry out this measure in such a way as to show that Ireland was determined for the future to rely upon herself for the amelioration of the condition of the people of that country. EARL FITZWILLIAM could not agree with the anticipations of the noble Marquess as to the effect of this Bill; for he was convinced that its operation would be most disastrous to Ireland. Hardly two noble Lords, whether connected altogether with Ireland, or with that country and England, had expressed similar opinions as to the probable results of this measure. He did not agree with the opinion that the responsibility of this Bill was entirely to rest upon Government; but he felt that great responsibility rested on them for not having attended to the doubts of those connected with Ireland, and also with having listened with too willing an ear to the representations made to them elsewhere by the suggestors of such a measure; although he admitted they had introduced some improvements into it in that House which manifested some feeling of the danger they feared the country might be exposed to. He told the Government, that House, and the House of Commons, that Ireland could not be rescued from the abyss into which she had fallen, without the continued aid and assistance of England. He did not stand there to defend all the landlords of Ireland; for he felt that some had neglected the management of their estates, and had allowed the present disastrous state of things to grow up; but many of them had done much to improve the condition of the people. It was true, according to the Act of Elizabeth, that not the land alone should be chargeable with the support of the poor, but all property; therefore, he regretted that such a doctrine with respect to the landed gentry of Ireland should be so prominently put forward; but he believed this was done to such an extent, as it was flattering to the gentry of England. He was convinced that this Act could not be carried out for a twelvemonth; but if a new Par liament assembled before Christmas, it would have to make most serious alterations in it, if not to repeal it. The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE felt how painful it was to differ from one for whom he entertained such feelings of regard as he did for his noble Friend who had just sat down. He thought that the large majorities by which that Bill had been carried, in both that and the other House, showed how general the feeling was in favour of it; and in addition to this, it had received the support of some of the highest authorities in the country. When such complaints were made against the adoption of out-door relief, noble Lords should recollect that in many parts of the west of Ireland, and more especially in Mayo and Galway, there were hardly any workhouses, and even in those the poor could not get relief. The danger did not arise from the out-door relief, but from the present state of Mayo. Those who had objected to this Bill had not pointed out how the present evils could be remedied. He did not believe that the Bill would be attended with any danger to Ireland, although for some years it would be a heavy burden on the land. In the fervent hope that it would relieve the condition of Ireland, he should give his cordial support to the measure. The EARL of MOUNTCASHEL protested against the Bill, because he was confident it would never work out the good effects which Her Majesty's Ministers anticipated. He was certain it would not, for any continuance of time, prevent the sufferings that the people of Ireland were now enduring; and that it would only end in producing greater evils than now existed in that country, and lead to the entire ruin of the farmers and ratepayers, whose welfare it nevertheless professed to protect. He warned their Lordships not to persevere with this measure; for if they hoped to carry it by compelling the people to give up their holdings, whether by arbitrary power or by legal means, they might depend upon it, that, however peaceable the people might be for a time, human nature would not endure oppression beyond a certain limit, and they might expect that ultimately the people would adopt a system very different from that of mere passive resistance. LORD ABINGER next addressed the House; but the noble Lord was quite inaudible. Bill read 3". 1048 LORD MONTEAGLE moved the addi- | such a provision in the Bill if Ireland were tion, by way of rider, of the following in a normal condition, or in a condition reclause: "And whereas the payment out of the poor's rate of rents due, or which may at any time hereafter become due, from destitute persons receiving relief, under this Act or the herein-first-before recited Act, or the payment of wages or in aid of wages to such persons out of any monies which may be advanced, raised, or expended under any Act for the relief of the destitute poor in Ireland, is an abuse which should be prohibited by law, and punished: be it further enacted, that it shall not be lawful to any board of guardians, or relieving officers, or any persons on their behalf, to pay to any destitute person receiving relief under this or the hereinbefore recited Act, any sum, or to pay for the account or advantage of such persons, any sum, out of monies advanced or levied for the relief of the destitute, in satisfaction of any rent for which destitute persons are or may be liable, or in aid of the wages of labour which such destitute person is receiving or en titled to receive; and that if, on the audit of the accounts of any union, it shall be proved to the satisfaction of the auditors that any relief shall have been given contrary to this enactment, any sum charged for such relief shall be struck out and disallowed from the said accounts, in the same manner as is now provided in respect to any other payment made contrary to law; provided always, that nothing herein contained shall prevent the relieving officer from giving provisional relief in cases of urgent necessity in lodging, until the next meeting of the guardians in the manner herein before provided." EARL GREY, while approving of the object of the clause, considered that, as it was framed, it would very much fetter the administration of the law; for, by the introduction of stringent terms to prevent abuse, a check would frequently be given to the granting of relief in cases in which it was proper to be granted. Clause negatived. EARL GREY moved an Amendment on the 8th Clause, the object of which was to render it imperative on a child to support its parents in the same way as is provided in the English Poor Law. sembling that of this country; but considering the millions of persons who were at present in a state of absolute destitution in Ireland, it appeared to him that that provision would operate most harshly, and was calculated to drive great masses of the people to a state of desperation. EARL GREY deprecated discussion upon the Bill generally while a particular clause only was before the House; and expressed a hope that the clause, as amended, would be allowed to stand. He thought they could only lay down a general principle, and then leave to the discretion and judgment of those to whom they intrusted the administration of the law the management of the details. He was afraid, that if justice, in the opinion of their Lordships, was not likely to be done to the parties whose interests were at issue, by this clause, the only alternative open to them was to strike the clause out of the Bill. He had already stated, on a former evening, his objection to such a course as this; and, in the then state of the House, he believed it would not be advisable to take such a step. The EARL of WICKLOW considered that the objections urged by the noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) were purely imaginary. After some conversation the Amendments were agreed to. LORD REDESDALE then moved the clause of which he had given notice: "And be it enacted, that from and after the passing of this Act it shall be lawful for the owner of any property rated to the relief of the poor at into an agreement with any person occupying the an annual value of not less than 207., to enter same by which the said tenant shall become alone liable for all the rates levied upon such property for the relief of the poor; and that, after having entered into such arrangement, it shall not be lawful for the said tenant to deduct from the rent agreed to be paid by him for such property any portion of the sums levied upon or paid by him on account of rates for the relief of the poor." EARL GREY then moved an Amendment on Clause 10, regulating the circumstances under which persons holding more than a quarter of an acre of land should EARL GREY was not now disposed to give it up on applying for relief, and ren- express any decided objection to the prindering it imperative on landlords to accept ciple involved in this clause. Such a vothe surrender of land in such cases. luntary agreement as that proposed might The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH ex-in many cases in Ireland be desirable; but, pressed his belief that the provision for refusing relief to all parties who might hold more than a quarter of an acre of land, until they should have given up their holdings, could not be beneficially carried into effect during the present great emergency in Ireland. It might be advisable to insert under present circumstances, and after the Bill had progressed to this stage, the House of Commons would probably look with disfavour upon such a clause, and might consider that its introduction was an interference with their privileges. For this reason, and because, also, in a very short |