directed, useless, reckless expenditure. I do, therefore, most sincerely hope that Her Majesty's Government will reconsider the proposition of extending the area of taxation, for I am sure it will be found to work most mischievously. It has been suggested that the townland division should be the area; but such an area will, I consider, be much too small. To work the measure well, it will be necessary to increase the number of workhouses and the number of unions; but it will also be necessary to increase the number of electoral divisions in those unions, and to diminish the area of taxation in order to furnish a motive to individual responsibility. I now come to another question, which I deem to be one of the greatest importance. It is a question upon which the noble Marquess who opened this debate expressed the strongest opinion; and my opinion is equally strong in opposition to his. The question is, upon whom-not retrospectively or immediately, but prospectively and ultimately -is to fall the weight of this taxation? What principle will you lay down as to the class of persons who are to bear it? You know at present the charge is borne by the Occupier with power to deduct from the landlord one half of the rate. That is the principle of the taxation, but the real result is that more than two-thirds of the rate are borne by the landlord, leaving scarcely one-third to be borne by the ten ant. of things would be to diminish considerably the number of small holders of land. He looked forward with hope, as I do, to the time when the system in that country will be somewhat more analogous to the English system. I, too, look forward with expectation to the period when, as my noble Friend said, the plough shall be substituted for the spade-I mean as the spade is at present employed-and I must here say, that I do not agree with my noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) that the substitution of an improved mode of husbandry will diminish the demand for labour. On the contrary, I believe that the best chance for an increase of employment in agricultural pursuits, is the introduction of a more scientific system of cultivation. The noble Marquess said, the landlords must increase the size of estates, decrease the number of tenants, and employ the surplus labour. All this sounded very well, but it is exactly what the landlords cannot do; it is what the Government itself could not do, with all the power of the Crown, upon the model estate it held in its own hands. For sixteen years the Government has been engaged in vain attempts to dislodge one single tenant, and he a tenant-at-will! and not one of them has for years paid one penny of rent! They were put in as caretakers of the property, and they took very good care of it indeed, for they took such a liking to their charge, that they could not be induced to part with it. They locked their doors against the landlord, and refused either to give up their farms or to pay a single shilling in any capacity whatsoever. The result may be, that when you introduce out-door relief, and make the landlord wholly liable, the tenant will have an interest in causing a large expenditure of the rate for the purpose of maintaining I should like to ask what some persons whom he might otherwise has the Crown done for the improvement have to maintain himself. Even in Eng- of that property? And when the landlords land, my Lords, where the farmers are in Ireland are called to so severe an accomparatively wealthy and intelligent, and count for not having their estates in a where the farms are of considerable ex- better condition, and their farms better tent-even in England, I say, it would ordered-landlords, too, who are in the not be endured that a board of guardians, midst of a starving population and a turbucomposed of farmers, should be able to de-lent peasantry, I think they may point with duct two-thirds of the rate from the owners of the soil. In this country the farmers commonly hold 300, 400, 500, and even as much as 1,000 acres, whilst in Ireland the farms-if such they can be called-are five, ten, twenty, or thirty acres; and yet it is upon a body of farmers of that description that you are about to confer the power of raising the rate. I tell you I look upon this provision of the Bill with the utmost dread and alarm. The noble Marquess opened his speech by saying, that the result of the present state some sort of justice to this model farm, and also, my Lords, to the confessions of the Ministers of the Crown in their capacity of Irish landlords. I admit as willingly as any one that the system of small holdings in an evil-I admit that a diminution ought to take place; but how is that to be done? How, but by diminishing the motive which at present influences so large a proportion of the population to be holders of land-by making them feel the duties and responsibilities of landholding-by obliging them to contribute a fair propor he should get half a "cow's grass" the less by the change. Then, my Lords, what I say is, compel the occupier who takes the land to bear the responsibility of it. Do I say, throw a heavier burden on the occupier than he at present bears? I mean no such thing, my Lords; and I wish to guard against misrepresentation upon this part of the subject, of which there has been already too much. What I mean is, that when the tenant is about to bargain with the landlord for his farm, the latter should say to him, "Now, recollect, I let you my land on condition that you pay the poor-rate ;" and from that moment the tenant would have a direct interest in keeping down pauperism by enlarging the field of employment, and his interest would be identified with those of the landlord. But it is a vain, a foolish, a visionary expectation, to suppose that the substantial farmers will employ additional labourers for the purpose of diminishing the rates which are paid by the landlord. I do not object to out-door relief, guarded as it is in this Bill by proper restrictions; but to the two great points I have described I entreat your Lordships to give your most careful consideration. But, my Lords, let me warn your Lordships not to be led into the fatal error of legislating against "impressions." The noble Marquess has spoken about "impressions"-I wish he had not used the phrase. Do not be led away, my Lords, by any such delusion. You are about to make a great, a danger tion towards the maintenance of the poor. | death who sought, at his own expense, As the Bill originally stood, there was not even to run a straight division between one of these holders of small farms that two holdings, if one of the tenants thought might not come forward and demand relief from the rates. The provision of the Bill prohibiting the giving of relief to a man occupying land, will go a considerable way in diminishing the attachment to the land in Ireland; but it is not enough; it will not produce any effect on the social condition of the country, the progress of agricultural improvement, or the employment of labour. If the occupier of a small plot cultivates it tolerably by the labour of his family, it is as much as you can expect; but he cannot employ labour, and he allows his land to remain half cultivated. The peasantry were content to remain half starved and half clothed, in habits of ease and indolence, until this alarming visitation of Providence came upon them. Do not let me be mistaken. When they have sufficient wages to stimulate them to exertion-when they are well fed and taken care of, and thoroughly well overlookedthey get through their work very well. They work hard in this country: why? because for a bad day's work they would get no wages at all. They get full wages, but must give full work. In his own country, the habits of the peasant and his mode of labour are quite different; ninetenths of the labouring population, as they are called, prefer receiving 6d. a day for six hours' work, to 1s. 6d. a day for twelve hours. The only chance, I say again, for the welfare of Ireland is in the diminution of the number of the small occupiers of land, and in the multiplication of the number of independent labourers. We must endea-ous, and it may be a fatal experiment. I vour to multiply that class which has the power to employ labour, and extend the area over which such a class will have influence. It is ridiculous to expect that the landlords can employ the surplus labouring population. I do not mean to say but the landlords may afford some relief in the parishes in which they reside, by employing a greater quantity of the surplus labour than they absolutely require; but, as a rule, the labourers must be employed by the occupier, and not by the landlord. It would be ridiculous, if it were not so lamentable, to indulge the fatal error that the owners of the soil can employ the surplus population, when all their estates are subdivided into portions of ten and fifteen acres each, and held by men who have not the means of occupying a single labourer; and the landlord would be resisted to the entreat of you not to make it more dangerous, more fatal, by being led away against your better judgment in order to adapt your legislation to impressions. Exercise your free and unfettered discretion; and recollect that you are better judges of what will be ultimately advantageous to those to whom the law is intended to apply, than those persons themselves. If you do not give to the owners of property greater means of improvement-if you do not give encouragement to improve those lands nominally theirs-if you do not give to them greater facilities of obtaining (by fair means undoubtedly) that land which has been mismanaged by small occupiers - above all, if you do not give the occupiers themselves an interest in keeping down the rates, depend upon it that the introduction of this Bill will be one of the most fatal boons that ever was conferred by England upon Ireland. Again, my Lords, I entreat you not to be led away by any desire to yield to these impressions. Enter upon the great task as statesmen-as provident, foreseeing, and bold statesmen-bold, because convinced of the truth of the principles by which you are actuated. Do not be deterred from doing what is just-do not stop half way-do not throw upon the land burdens which you know the land is unable to bear-do not think to confer a boon upon the occupier by leaving him in possession of all those motives which now influence him to withhold the possession of that land which he cannot till. I entreat you, my Lords, to weigh well these most grave and important questions, and not to be carried away by the impressions of the moment, but to be swayed by calculations of the future. I believe, if the Government boldly face the difficulties-and difficulties of the most serious kind they will have to contend with that they will be assisted to the utmost in the endeavour to overcome them. They will have to encounter no factious hostility, no party opposition, no political manœuvres, no paltry desire of triumph; on the contrary, they will have every party in this and in the other House of Parliament cordially engaging in cooperating with them in bringing this scheme to a successful issue. Do not be led away by impressions-do not be guided by what may be popular for the moment; but seriously consider what is the safest, or I should rather say the least dangerous legislation-what measure will ultimately lead to a state of society better organized, more harmonious, more closely knit together, more prosperous, than ever existed in Ireland up to this day, or than ever can whilst the present subdivision of land exists in that country. It will not do to bring one of the elements of prosperity into operation. There must be a combination of the three of land, labour, and capital. At present there is a surplus of labour beyond the power of demand. Emigration has been suggested. My belief is, that you must provide for the expatriation of a portion of the population. I do not share in the alarm so freely expressed, that it is only the possessors of capital who are emigrating. I have before stated in this House, and I now repeat my belief, that the middle classes of the people, even the small farmers of Ireland, are far from being destitute of capital; and what I say is often proved in the transactions between the man who disposes of his interest in a farm to another, as well as upon other occasions. I believe there is abundance of capital, but the cultivation of the land cannot be advantageously carried on according to the present distribution. There must be a class of people created who will have the will as well as the ability to employ the population; and whose interest it will be, not to encourage pauperism, but to repress it not to promote turbulence and disorder, but to put them down. I was about to speak of the large and, I think, dangerous powers which are given to relieving officers; but at this late hour of the night I will not further trespass on your Lordships. My Lords, I may say in conclusion-and I believe that in saying so I represent the feelings of most of your Lordships-that we do not grudge the Government the credit of framing and bringing forward a scheme which, if successful, will be most important, and most useful indeed; we freely take our share of the burden of deliberation, and are willing to use all our exertions in assisting the Government to carry it through Parliament we tender our suggestions with frankness-we state our objections openly, and not captiously-we shall spare no pains to bring it to a successful issue; and our earnest prayer is, that this most perilous measure may, by our joint efforts, our acting harmoniously together, listening with patience to the arguments proceeding from either side, and guided only by the voice of reason, ultimately lead to the social reconstruction of Irish society, and the permanent improvement of that portion, and, if of that portion, of the whole united empire. The EARL of DESART expressed his gratification at the noble and disinterested conduct of the people of England, and strongly reprobated the language used by agitators and fomenters of discord in Ireland, whom he beseeched their Lordships not to regard as representing the sentiments of the people. The noble Earl (who was heard but indistinctly) was understood to express an opinion, that the only means of remedying the evils of Ireland would be to furnish employment for her surplus population, whom it would be idle to think of supporting by means of any system of out-door relief. LORD BROUGHAM said, that having recently declared his opinions fully with respect to this question, he felt it to be unnecessary to trouble their Lordships with many observations at that moment. He differed from those who thought that the present pressure of circumstances afforded a reason for adopting the measure; he thought it a reason for not legislating on such a subject. In his opinion, the opportunity was taken to carry the measure, which but for some such extraordinary pressure of circumstances, no one would have dreamt of proposing. To meet a temporary pressure, they were about to impose a permanent burden. He hoped that, at least, the operation of the Bill would be limited to one year, and from then to the end of the next Session of Parliament. Still they would be sinning against principle in passing the measure at all; and, having once given it a temporary existence, it would be found very difficult, if not impossible, to repeal it. It would be desirable to throw the burden upon the occupier, as in this country; but it was impossible to do so. Great as would be the responsibility of the Government, and great as would be the risk to the public peace, if they were to do nothing in this matter, that responsibility and that risk would be a mere jest compared with what they would have to encounter if a Bill should be sent over to Ireland which would impose the burden, even prospectively, upon the occupier. It was absolutely and hopelessly impossible to do any such thing. The consequence would be that the occupier, who was the person that ought to control the expenditure, would have no interest in doing so, because he knew the money would come out of the landowner's pocket. The whole course of that night's debate had more and more thoroughly convinced him that the Bill would be found incapable of execution, from the want of the machinery to work it. The diversity of opinion which prevailed on the subject, confirmed him in his opinion. Every noble Lord who had spoken that night had taken a perfectly different view of almost all the essential particulars of the plan. Indeed, one noble Lord, who had spoken from the cross benches, was so enamoured with poor-law relief, that he expressed great indignation because the owners of land could not obtain relief under the provisions of the Bill. The noble Lord did not care whether the owner or the occupier of the land paid the rates; but he wished the landowner at any rate to come in for his share of relief. LORD COLCHESTER would give his vote for the second reading of the Bill, on the broad principle that he thought that in every civilized and Christian land care should be taken that no person should perish from destitution, or should be without a regular legal provision in case of distress. But that was not the case with Ireland at present; the poor there had absolutely no claim to relief; it was in the discretion of the guardians whether they should give relief or not; but the two first clauses of this Bill conferred upon every one in Ireland a right to relief-to the aged and infirm, and those of the ablebodied that were in casual distress; the relief to the latter class to be given out of doors. But while he urged as strongly as he could the principle that it was their duty to provide means of relief for the poor, he thought it but right that they should fix the manner in which that relief should be given; and he, therefore, only supported out-door relief on this principle, that when the workhouses were full, relief might be afforded outside the workhouses. To that extent he supported out-door relief for Ireland. Bill read 2a. House adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Thursday, April 29, 1847. MINUTES.] NEW WRIT.-For the County of Galway, v. PUBLIC BILLS.-2o Police Clauses; Cemeteries Clauses. PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. T. Duncombe, from Norwich, for Alteration of Law respecting the Registration of Voters. By Mr. Dennistoun, and Captain Duff, from Scotland, against the Marriage (Scotland) Bill.-By Lord J. Manners, from Keighley (Yorkshire), and Cardiff (Wales), in favour of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill.By Mr. Brotherton, from Padstow, and Uxbridge, against the Use of Grain in Breweries and Distilleries.-By Sir A. L. Hay, from Shipowners of Peterhead, for Reduction of Lighthouse Dues.-By Mr. Dennistoun, from Distillers of Glasgow, respecting the Drawback on Spirits, and the Bonding System.-By Mr. Grimsditch, from Blackburn, respecting Remuneration to Tax Assessors and Collectors.-By Mr. Deeds, from Farmers attending Canterbury and Ashford Markets, in favour of the Agricultural Tenant-Right Bill.-By Mr. Ferrand, from Inhabitants of Wibsey, for Repeal of the Anatomy Act.-By Viset. Ebrington, from Ratepayers of the Districts of St. Peter, Saffron Hill, and St. Andrew, Holborn (Middlesex), for Extension of the Baths and Washhouses Act.-By Mr. Divett, from Exeter, for Regulating the Qualification to become Chemists and Druggists.-By Mr. T. Duncombe, from Manchester, and Mr. Morris, from Cardigan, against, and by Mr. V. Smith, from Guardians of the Northampton Union, in favour of the Government Plan of Education. By Colonel Fox, from Trustees of the Parish of St. Leonard, Shoreditch, against the Health of Towns Bill; and by Sir G. Grey, from Devonport, and Mr. W. Patten, from Warrington, in favour of the same.-By Captain Duff, from Magistrates and Inhabitants of the Burgh of Macduff (Banff), for Alteration of the Law relating to Highways, Bridges, and Ferries (Scotland).-By Mr. T. Duncombe, from Leicester, Derby, and Nottingham, in favour of the Hosiery Manufacture Bill.-From Petworth, in favour of the Juvenile Offenders Bill.-By Thomas Martin, Esq., deceased. Mr. Ferrand, from Archibald McDonald, of Aberdeen, | out for this voyage, and she has been placed by for Redress. By Mr. T. Duncombe, from William the Secretary of the Navy at the disposal of the Henry Brown, M.D., in favour of the Medical Registra- Boston relief committee. Mr. Forbes, who takes tion and Medical Law Amendment Bill.-By Sir De L. command of her, and who will have the honour of Evans, from Chelsea Pensioners, for Inquiry.-By Lord R. Grosvenor, and Mr. A. Duncombe, from Poor Law delivering to you this letter, or its duplicate, is a Officers of several places, for a Superannuation Fund for merchant of great worth and public spirit; a gentleman of high consideration in the community, Poor Law Officers.-By the Marquess of Douro, from Norwich, and Mr. Gisborne, from Nottingham, for Re- who has volunteered his services for this occasion. peal or Alteration of the Poor Removal Act.-By Cap- The officers associated with him in navigating the tain Duff, from Inhabitants of the Port of Burghead, vessel, are also volunteers-substantial citizens of in favour of the Ports, Harbours, &c. (1846) Bill.-From great respectability. The cargo is placed under Liverpool, for Alteration of the Punishment of Vagrants, Mr. Forbes's exclusive control; and he and his &c. (Ireland) Bill.-By Mr. T. Duncombe, from John brother officers have gratuitously devoted themReddie, of Glasgow, for Redress.-By Captain Duff, and selves to this benevolent service at considerable Sir R. Ferguson, from several places in Scotland, against the Registering of Births, &c. (Scotland) Bill; and from personal inconvenience, from the sole motive of appropriating the supplies in the most economical and effectual manner. the Parish of Auchterderran, for Alteration of the same. By Sir R. Ferguson, from Fife, and Sir J. McTaggart, from Presbytery of Stranraer, against the Registering Births, &c. (Scotland) Bill, and Marriage (Scotland) Bill. THE JAMESTOWN. MR. BROWN, seeing the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland in his place, rose to inquire of that right hon. Gentleman, if the American Government had taken the guns out of a vessel of war called the Jamestown, and placed her, as well as another vessel of war, at the disposal of a certain number of American gentlemen, citizens of the United States, who had formed themselves into a committee for the purpose of affording relief to the suffering population of Ireland. He wished to know whether those vessels or either of them had yet reached any of the Irish ports? MR. LABOUCHERE thought that, previously to answering the question which had just been put to him, and of which the hon. Gentleman had given him notice, he should do well to read to the House an extract of a letter which he held in his hand. The writer of the letter was Mr. Everett, whom they all remembered for many years as Ambassador in this country accredited by the Government of the United States. The letter was in the following words : "Cambridge, March 26, 1847.-I address you this letter for the purpose of commending to your protection and good offices the commander of the Jamestown, R. Bennett Forbes, Esq. This vessel will sail to-morrow for Cork from Boston, with a full cargo of provisions for the relief of the sufferers by famine in Ireland, and another equal quantity will soon follow. The funds for these supplies have been raised by voluntary subscriptions, about one-half in Boston, and the other half in the interior towns and villages in New England, to the amount in the whole of about 100,000 dollars. Large supplies, not included in this estimate, have been sent, and are on their way, from New York, and other places further south. The Jamestown is a vessel of war of the United States. Her armament has been taken The Jamestown, after performing that important service at Cork, and having deposited her cargo in that city, took her departure, and was now on her way to the United States. The other vessel also had arrived and landed her cargo in Ireland. But even the large supplies brought by both those vessels, formed only a small portion of the contributionsthe spontaneous and voluntary contributions-which the people of Ireland bad derived from the benevolence of the people of the United States. PUBLIC REVENUE. DR. BOWRING rose, pursuant to notice, to move certain resolutions touching the collection of the public revenue. He those resolutions under the notice of the had sought various opportunities to bring House, or at least a Motion similar in tenlabours had not yet been attended with dency; but he regretted to say that his success. The object which he had in view was best expressed by the resolutions on the Notice Paper of the House, and he should, before he proceeded much further, read those resolutions to the House. He need scarcely remind hon. Members that, with respect to the revenue of the country, there were two great sections—one connected with the receipt, and the other with the expenditure of the public revenue. The groundwork of his resolutions was, that receipt and expenditure should on no account be confounded; that, as the services of receipt and expenditure were in their nature of a separate character, so the functions of the two departments should be wholly and effectually separated. Parliament would not perform its duty unless care were taken that all the money which the people contributed to the exigencies of the State, found its way into the Queen's Exchequer. The Exchequer was an insti |