done away with. That they had a large capital sometimes lying dormant required explanation, and perhaps the right hon. Baronet, who had been Master of the Mint (Sir G. Clerk), would enlighten the House on that point. SIR G. CLERK referred the hon. Member to the evidence taken before the Committee for information on the point. MR. SHEIL said, that the company were obliged to keep up their machinery, and to pay the wages of a number of skilful artisans during the time they were not engaged in coining. With respect to the question generally, he did not hesitate to say that it would be matter of future consideration for the Government whether some useful modification might not be made in the existing system. did not know, for they could do nothing without the superintendence of the Master of the Mint. Vote agreed to. SUPPLY-COMMISSIONERS OF On the question that 17,000l. be granted for the salaries of the Commissioners of Railways, COLONEL SIBTHORP said, that, preferring duty to dinner, he had remained in the House purposely to oppose this vote. If these Commissioners must have 17,0001. a year, let it come out of the pockets of the railway companies. Heaven knew they made money enough. MR. HUDSON agreed with the hon. and gallant Member in thinking that the MR. THORNELY wished to know whe-public ought not to be called upon to pay ther any progress had been made in the coinage of two-shilling pieces? MR. SHEIL had consulted the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was officially more responsible than himself as to the form the coin should assume, and the right hon. Baronet had promised to give his attention to the subject. He (Mr. Sheil) had given instructions to the engraver to be in readiness, should it be determined to coin two-shilling pieces. MR. HUME said, that as the hon. Baronet opposite (Sir G. Clerk) did not reply, he should beg to ask the present Master of the Mint what capital the moneyers were compelled to employ ? SIR G. GREY said, if the hon. Member were to refer to the evidence taken by the Committee, he would find they were obliged, in addition to the charges alluded to by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sheil), to keep a quantity of material always ready. If they were to take an average of ten years, they would find that each of these persons received a sum which was not much for their risk and trouble. MR. HUME: That was not the point. All the material was supplied at the public expense. He knew of no capital or risk with which they were concerned. MR. WILLIAMS said, it was quite absurd to talk of their keeping a stock of bullion; they merely coined that which was put into their hands by the Government or by private persons, and made a charge on it. He ventured to assert, that those individuals divided annually profits to a larger amount each than the salary of the Master of the Mint a high officer of State, and often a Cabinet Minister. Why this was, he this charge; but he could not concur in the suggestion that it should be transferred to the railway companies. The Commissioners were appointed on the recommendation of a Committee which sat at the end of last Session, and of which he had the honour to be a member; but he disapproved of the recommendation of the Committee, and the experience furnished by the working of the Board convinced him of the propriety of the objection he originally entertained with respect to it. The Committee of the Board of Trade was as useful for all purposes as the present Board could be. But if the appointment of the Commissioners were necessary, the sum they were paid was enormous. In appointing the Commissioners, the Government took no trouble to select men who possessed any knowledge of the railway system. The right hon. Gentleman opposite was the only one of them who could be supposed to know anything of the subject; but one of his Colleagues was a gentleman who had distinguished himself as an Indian judge; and the other was a noble Lord. Persons connected with railway undertakings could not respect the decisions of a Board, the members of which-with the exception of the Chief Commissioner, who, by travelling frequently between Derby and London, knew what a railway was-were totally unacquainted with the subject to which they were required to apply themselves. Their remuneration, however, was excessive under any circumstances. The duties which he performed in connexion with railways were more onerous than those which devolved on the Commissioners, and he was able to execute them without any assistance. The expenditure of the country had gone on increasing since 1836; and it had become necessary to object to every fresh item which was not indispensably necessary. He thought that 8,000l. a year, instead of 17,000l., would be quite enough for the expenses of the Board. the officer of engineers, who had, in due course, proceeded officially to investigate it, they had thought it right to associate with him an eminent civil engineer; and they had chosen Mr. Walker, than whom a more fit person could not be found. They had also communicated with the Ordnance aud the Admiralty; and those departments had also sent persons to assist in the inquiry. With regard to the expenses of the Board, he begged to observe, that the duties performed by the department were now much more onerous than they were six months ago under the Board of Trade, in consequence of the additional railways authorized by Parliament. MR. HUME approved of the establishment of the Railway Board, but thought the expenses more than they need be. MR. WILLIAMS observed, that the expenses of the Board of Trade, notwithstanding the business that had been withdrawn from it, exceeded by 4451. this year what they were for the year 1846. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, if the estimates were examined, it would be found that the expenses of the Board did not exceed 12,000l. a year. Nor could he agree with the right hon. Gentleman in thinking that the members of the Board were overpaid. All the public men who had been in the public service during the last twenty years had not put so much into their pockets as had a few gentlemen who, with great skill and integrity, no doubt, had managed railways during the last few years, as the right hon. Gentleman himself had done. The Board was constituted with the full assent of the House and of the Committees both of that House and of the House of Lords, who had investigated the sub- The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEject; nor did he think that the public ge- QUER hoped the discussion would not be nerally would either think that Board un-proceeded with. A more fitting opportunecessary, or that the appointments them-nity would occur when the new Railways selves had not been judiciously made. The Bill came before the House, object was to get gentlemen to constitute MR. HUDSON agreed that this was it who were unconnected with railways, not the proper occasion for the discussion. and who would be free from the suspicion He admitted he was wrong as to the exof partiality. He believed that they had penses of the Board; but he thought even discharged their duties to the great satis-12,000l. a year too much. He doubted faction of the public, and that, so far from whether the inspection and certificate of the public money having been wasted, it any Inspector General could be a sufficient had been expended for the public benefit. protection to the public in cases of bridges He begged also to observe, that a great and other works on the lines. As to what portion of the staff of the Railway Board the right hon. Gentleman had said on the consisted of those officers who had been subject of the profits of those who had transferred from the railway department of managed railway companies, he could only the Board of Trade. say, that if he had won any prizes, it had COLONEL SIBTHORP thought that the not been as the salaried servant of any time of the Railway Board would be well company; at least, his salary from any employed in seeing how far compensation company had not exceeded 1007. a year. had been and should and could be given MR. HUME inquired whether it was by railway companies in cases of melan-true that third-class passengers were obcholy accidents, such as that which had re- liged to stand, like cattle, in the carriages, cently occurred on the Shrewsbury and notwithstanding the arrangement of last Chester Line. year? That MR. STRUTT reminded the hon. and MR. STRUTT said, all the Railway gallant Member, that such cases had been already provided for by the Death by Accidents Compensation Act, which, among other things, gave to the survivors of persons killed a right to recover from the company, which they had not had before. With regard to the accident on the Shrewsbury and Chester Line, the Railway Board had thought it so important, that, besides Board could do was to see that the law mile at any rate of cheapness, on the SUPPLY-PUBLIC RECORDS. had come to any determination on the subject, but it was a matter looked on with great interest by literary men; much surprise had been expressed that countries possessing inferior treasures had done much more than England to gather together the elements of historical know On the question, that 12,8127. be grant-ledge. ed for the expenses of the Public Record Department, MR. PROTHEROE hoped to hear that some measures were being taken to provide a place of permanent deposit for the public records: they were at present placed part in that filthy old building the Chapterhouse of Westminister Abbey; part next the powder magazine in the Tower, and in the old Riding-house of Carlton Palace; in all these places they were extremely insecure, and might be destroyed at any time. They contained some of the most curious and valuable documents in Europe; and, even if considered as mere public stores, they deserved to be kept in some place of security. If a building should be constructed for them, he hoped the style of architecture adopted would be a simple one, and not the expensive Gothic of the New Houses of Parliament. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, the subject had been brought under the attention of the Government, but there was some difficulty in finding a site adequate to the purpose. The Government had given up the notion of devoting any portion of the New Houses of Parliament for the deposit of the records, and three or four sites had been mentioned for a building for them. One was on ground belonging to the Rolls estate; but, however desirable it was to remove the records from their places of deposit, it nevertheless required some time to obtain possession of the ground. He could only say, the subject was under consideration, and steps were being taken to obtain that site which was, on the whole, most desirable. MR. PROTHEROE thought it was a great error in the Record Commission to have commenced publishing too soon. They began to print before they knew what they possessed. The records were now being arranged, and it would be known what the country really had. The Commission at first published old calendars, and began series of records afterwards found to be imperfect. He trusted, when all the records were arranged, the Government would think it worth while to devote a sum of money to publishing a selection from them. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER could not give the hon. and learned Gentleman any information on the point, having had no notice of the question. He thought the suggestion a good one; but he could not commit the Government to any particular course respecting it. Vote agreed to. SUPPLY-GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND. On the question that 6,4647. be granted to defray the expenses of the officers of the household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, DR. BOWRING said he should object to one of the items included in the vote. He thought it both unreasonable and inhuman, when the people of Ireland and Scotland were dying from starvation, to grant 1,5741. for a Queen's plate to encourage horse-racing. He therefore hoped that the House would object to this part of the vote. MR. LABOUCHERE thought the argument of the hon. Member was altogether DR. BOWRING suggested that the Go- ad captandum, and made merely to catch vernment should make a collection of the popularity. The hon. Gentleman might records connected with the earlier periods have selected the vote for the Ulster Kingof the history of the country. Every na-at-Arms, or York Herald, or any other tion in Europe had made some progress in collecting such old historical documents; France had made a collection of this kind, and M. Guizot paid great attention to the subject; Germany, Italy, Denmark, and Sweden, had taken advantage of this period of peace and tranquillity to apply themselves to the same public purpose. He did not know whether the Government expense for the pomp and state of the office of Lord Lieutenant, and ask the Committee on the same grounds to refuse it. However ad captandum that argu. ment might be, he did not think it ought to be yielded to. The question was, whether the vote was a proper expenditure of money or not. If it was not, then, without any reference to the circumstances of Ire land, the House ought to stop it; but the existing distress was no reason why the House should cease to give what it had been accustomed to give for a laudable and proper object. In England various plates were given by the bounty of the Sovereign to encourage horse-racing, out of the civil list; this was formerly the case also in Scotland and Ireland. But the Committee of 1832 transferred the civil list of those two countries to the annual estimates, and the same Committee thought 1,500l. not an enormous sum to be applied to this purpose. To retrench the sum in Ireland, while it was continued in England and Scotland, would not be a popular proceeding. In Ireland, not only the gentry, but the people down to the lowest class, took great interest in the races. They afforded them a very harmless amusement, and, notwithstanding the hon. Gentleman's appeal, he hoped the Committee as well as all other Committees had done, would sanction the vote. MR. WILLIAMS had expected to hear stronger reasons than those given by the right hon. Gentleman for taxing the people to support horse-racing and gambling. Suppose he had proposed a vote for dog-fighting, and badger-baiting? Both these practices encouraged gambling. He should propose that the vote be reduced to 4,9641. Vote agreed to. On the question that 22,7881. be granted for the Chief Secretary's and Council officers (Ireland), put to that focus of cabals in that country. He deprecated in every respect the praetice of making Ireland a colony, instead of governing it as an integral part of the United Kingdom. MR. LABOUCHERE was sure the hon. Gentleman would feel that whatever opinions he might entertain upon this question, the present was not a fitting time for discussing it. He agreed with the hon. Gentleman, that whatever might be the proper system with regard to the government of Ireland, the mere expense of that system was a minor consideration. The only point ought to be, what was most for the benefit of Ireland; but at the present moment it was quite obvious that it would be wrong to enter upon a discussion so wide and important. Vote agreed to. SUPPLY-SECRET SERVICE. On the question that a sum of 39,000!. be granted for the Foreign and Secret Service, DR. BOWRING complained that from year to year they were called upon to vote the same sum of 39,000l. for the Secret and Foreign Department. Was the same sum expended every year? He believed very little service was done for this sum; but it was singular that the same amount should be voted year after year. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER was understood to say that the charge was made on the expenditure of an average of years. foreign countries who were not worth bribing. He believed it was principally, if not entirely, in the foreign service, that this money was expended; and it was most mischievously thrown away, as he had no doubt had been the lately in Portugal. MR. HUME said, though particular circumstances prevented him at present, he MR. HUME complained that putting would as soon as possible take the sense of money into the hands of people in this the House on the propriety of continuing way only encouraged extravagance, and to maintain the office of Lord-Lieutenant led, perhaps, to the bribery of fellows in of Ireland. Eighteen years ago the House divided on the question, and the abolition of the office was negatived by a majority of only 20. One of the grand mischiefs of Ireland was this delegated authority: the country should be placed on the same footing as Scotland, and treated in the same manner; and they would remove the cabals that had hitherto done so much mischief, and give that unfortunate country some rest from political agitation. He believed the Lord Lieutenants had acted like the governors of most colonies, and gathered factions round them. If he should be in the new Parliament, the first Session should not pass without his bringing the question before the House. He was sure there was not a man who wished well to Ireland but would rejoice at seeing an end MR. WILLIAMS thought the Government ought to satisfy themselves as to whether there was any balance of the sums voted in former years on hand. He might state that there was an impression abroad that a large portion of the Secret Service money was devoted to electioneering purposes. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, with regard to the last observation of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. William), could state most positively that the impression to which he had alluded was wholly without foundation. There was a strict oath which every Minister was bound to take, that he would apply the funds with which he was intrusted to their proper and legitimate purposes. Vote agreed to. SUPPLY-STATIONERY. On the question that a sum of 295,5137. be granted for the expenses of the Stationery, Printing, and Binding in the various departments, MR. WILLIAMS complained that this vote, as compared with that of 1845, showed an increase of no less than 68,000l. MR. PARKER said, there was included an item of 11,000l. or 12,000l., for compensation to the Queen's printer in Ireland. The only other explanation that could be given was, that there were so many inquiries and commissions, that great expense was incurred in the printing of blue books, returns, &c. MR. CARDWELL should like to know how much had been expended in printing preliminary inquiries of various kinds, probably caused by parties who would object to this vote? MR. HUME was anxious to know the expense of printing each separate report. When the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cardwell) was one of the Secretaries to the Treasury, he wished to know the expense of printing any paper, but could not get it; this showed that the hon. Gentleman really knew very little about the details of his office. He should like to know what trouble the hon. Gentleman ever took to furnish the House with these separate accounts. MR. CARDWELL was understood to say, that to furnish the House with the cost of each paper would be as expensive as the original printing of the paper itself. MR. HUME said, the hon. Member would admit that when in office it was his duty to act with regard to the public expenditure as strictly as if he were transacting his own private business. If an account of 295,000l. was laid befo the hon. Gentleman for printing connect with his own business, would he not think it necessary to ascertain the various items of which that large amount was composed? Yet this was not done here, and it was just the way with all the secretaries together. MR. CARDWELL thought the observations of the hon. Gentleman were altogether unfounded and uncalled for. If the Stationery Office were called upon to state | the expense of each particular paper, it would cause a very considerable addition of expenditure, instead of being attended with the slightest economy. The proper way to keep down expense was for hon. Gentlemen not to call for unnecessary papers and reports. MR. HUME would convict the hon. Gentleman on his own words, and show that he knew nothing of his own business. It was n t the clerks of the Stationery Office, but the printer, who entered the amount of the expense of papers printed. It was clear to him (Mr. Hume) that when the hon. Gentleman was in office he failed to do his duty. INCK LORD G. BENTINCK should like to have a return of the expense of all the papers moved for and printed at the desire of the two hon. Gentlemen seated beside each other (Mr. Hume and Dr. Bowring). MR. HUME had never asked for papers, but with a view to their being used for the public benefit; and he challenged any man to prove that he ever had. There was not a paper he had obtained that he had not made use of. He challenged the noble Lord to show that he had ever moved for a paper needlessly. On Monday he would move, that an account be laid on the Table showing what the amount of each item in this vote was; and he should also move for a return of what the expense of that analysis would be. SIR W. CLAY considered that more valuable information had been moved for by the hon. Member for Montrose than by any other Member of that House. DR. BOWRING thought it was very desirable that before an order was agreed to by the House for the printing of any documents, proper inquiry should be made as to whether the papers asked for had not been already on the Table of the House. With regard to the insinuations of the noble Lord opposite, he must say that he (Dr. Bowring) had never moved for a document simply because he had been requested to do so. It was only when he thought that the production of a document would be of public service that he moved for it. The documents which he had moved for had always reference to some Motion either already before or about to be brought before the House. And having said thus much regarding himself, he would venture to say, with regard to the papers which had been moved for from time to time by his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose, that they had been the means of saving not only |