Hall, Sir B. On Clause D, O'Connell, M. J. TELLERS. Norreys, Sir D. J. SIR R. FERGUSON proposed an Amendment restricting, as we understood, the power of the auditors in granting certificates. The House divided on the question that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause, when there appeared: -Ayes 73; Noes 19: Majority 53. Bellew, R. M. Bentinck, Lord G. Howard, P. H. LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL. On the Order of the Day for the consideration of the Lords' Amendments to the Landed Property (Ireland) Bill, The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that the Speaker had already stated to the House that some of the Amendments in this Bill were such, that it would be inconsistent with the privileges of that House to agree to them; but there were others which he admitted to be improvements of the Bill. The power now given of applying a portion of the money to be advanced to the construction of grist rt. hon. H. mills and various buildings, for which it was not originally designed, was, he understood, one of the Amendments to which that objection principally applied. With regard to the construction of grist mills, he would only observe that the whole sum of 1,500,000l. had already been applied for for the original purpose to which it was destined, viz., the drainage and reclamation of land; and he certainly considered these latter as improvements of the greatest practical importance. If, however, before the next Session, there should appear any surplus, not applied for for those purposes, it would then become a question for consideration whether that surplus should not be applied to the construction of mills, or works of that sort; but in the present Session, he thought it better to confirm the application of the loan to the great purposes for which it was originally intended. Maule, rt. hon. F. TELLERS. Hobhouse rt. hon. Sir J. Hill, Lord M. Tufnell, H. List of the NOES. Barron, Sir H. W. Collett, J. MR. F. FRENCH said, that he understood from the right hon. Gentleman that claims had already been made to the full extent of 1,500,000l.; but he (Mr. French) asserted that it was totally unavailable to one-fourth of Ireland, as the right hon. Gentleman must know from the statements of the officers of the Board of Works. In the west of Ireland, where the distress was most pressing, and works most required, this measure would give no relief, because no portion of the west of Ireland could be made to exhibit an immediate improvement | language used on that former occasion by to the amount of 6 per cent. He knew the noble Lord now at the head of the Gothe fact from the statements of officers of vernment was perfectly applicable to the the Board of Works, as well as from his present case. It would be stretching their own knowledge; and yet the Government privileges to a most inconvenient extent, would not grant the loan, except upon a and would in effect prevent the House of report that an immediate and permanent Lords from ever improving any Bills of improvement to the amount of 6 per cent this sort, if they should refuse to assent would be the consequence. The Bill did to those Amendments, which could not, in not expressly require it; but he under- any event, add to the taxation of the counstood that the right hon. Gentleman did try or the amount of the loan, but only not think it would be advisable, on the altered the distribution of it. The noble part of the Government, to make any loan, Lord opposite, on the occasion to which he when such an improvement would not be had adverted, and on a measure which althe immediate result. And, besides, the tered altogether the taxation of the counBoard of Works had a direct interest in re- try, had recommended the House to agree porting in favour of the works to be exe- to the Amendments of the Lords, on the cuted by themselves. ground that they On the Motion on the 4th Clause, that the House do disagree to the Amendment of the Lords with regard to the construction of grist mills, Motion agreed to. On the Amendment to the 28th Clause, giving the Board of Works power to extend the time for completing works and making payments, LORD J. MANNERS asked for a statement of the reasons why the Government proposed to negative the Lords' Amendments. He thought that the House had been taken by surprise with regard to the last vote. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that could hardly be, for the hon. Member behind him had actually spoken on the question; and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had already stated that his reason for resisting the Amendments was that they violated, according to the decision of the Speaker, an important privilege of that House. LORD G. BENTINCK said, that he certainly had understood the right hon. Gentleman to move that the House do agree to the Lords' Amendments instead of "disagree;" but as to the merits of the case, there seemed to him little difference between the cases of the English Poor Law and the English Municipal Law and the case of the Irish Poor Law, though he entirely agreed with the Speaker that no precedent could be found. But there must be a beginning. Up to the year 1834, no precedent was to be found for admitting any alterations by the Lords in any Bill at all involving taxation; but at that time a precedent was formed with regard to matters of local taxation; and though this was the case of a loan, the other was the case of a tax upon the people; and all the -"did not alter the total amount of the burden, and that it would be very vexatious and very inex pedient to insist on their privilege on the ground of such an objection." Whilst, therefore, he conceived that there' was no precedent for this course; neither in 1834, was there any precedent for that then pursued; for formerly that House did not allow the Lords to introduce any alterations even into a Road or Canal Bill, and not a criminal penalty even to be added or altered. But the present Amendments were not intended in any way to add to the burdens of the people, but only to vary the distribution of a boon granted by Parliament, so as, in the opinion of a large portion of the representatives of Ireland, to add greatly to the value of the boon itself. For these reasons he was prepared to vote that they should wave their privileges, and assent to the Amendment of the Lords. MR. LABOUCHERE said, that if he wanted arguments for not waving the privilege of that House, he found them in the speech of the noble Lord. The noble Lord said, that there must be a beginning; that the House had relaxed its practice with regard to the application of local rates, and the noble Lord used that as an argument for further relaxation; but he, on the contrary, considered it the very strongest argument for insisting on their privileges, and he thought that it was of vital importance that they should keep in their own hands the application of money levied by general taxation. It was clear, that if they waved their privilege on that occasion, the House of Lords would on all future occasions exercise the power of altering the distribution of any tax which that House might impose; and he hoped that the House would refuse to depart from its ancient practice, He placed his resistance to these Amend- | applying to a service which was not inments entirely on the ground of privilege, tended, money which had been distinctly because, as to the question itself, he thought applied to another, and withdrawing it it of no very great importance whether the from that other. But let them see what construction of mills, or even farm build- would be the consequence. In any Approings in peculiar cases, should or should priation Bill, the House of Commons might not be included in the purposes to which have voted 5,000,000l. for the Army and this loan was to be devoted; and his right 5,000,000l. for the Navy; but if the Lords hon. Friend had already stated, that though could alter that distribution, they might the money was exhausted by the applica- say, "We prefer giving 6,000,000l. to tions which had already been made, if a one and 4,000,000l. to the other service;" surplus should arise, the question would and if that were so, he asked any one who then be open for consideration; but he did had considered the relative positions of the trust that the House would not part with different branches of the Legislature, whethat which was no mere matter of form, ther that would not be a most fatal violabut a most substantial privilege of that tion of this important privilege? The House, involving largely the liberties and effect of the argument used by the noble interests of the country. The distinction Lord was, that they had made a great between the application of local rates and mistake in allowing the Lords to interfere of the proceeds of general taxation, seemed with questions of local taxation, and that, to him very broad; and considering how therefore, they had better proceed further, constantly the House of Lords pressed and give up the privilege altogether. upon them, whenever they waved any privilege, they ought to be warned by experience, and resist any such attempts as the present. MR. NEWDEGATE said, that the right hon. Gentleman had based his claim to the privilege of that House upon so narrow a foundation, that it could hardly stand. If their privilege rested on so narrow a ground, that they were bound to resist amendments as to local distribution of money, raised by general taxation, whilst they consented to amendments as to the application of rates so locally collected, the ground was unworthy of that House. He must say, that the indignation of the right hon. Gentleman seemed to him very uncalled for, because the principle of allowing the Lords to interfere in matters of local taxation had been often recognised; and although this particular fund was not to be levied by local assessment, yet taxation was the same, whether levied by local or by general assessment, and he therefore could not oppose the Amendments on any such ground. MR. GOULBURN could not agree with the view of the hon. Member for Warwickshire, for he thought that these Amendments did involve most seriously the most valuable privileges of the House. By the Bill as it went up to the Lords, there were certain purposes to which the money to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund was to be applied; but in the Lords, other purposes had been added, and particular amounts specified which it might be in the power of the Government to give, thereby SIR H. W. BARRON said, that the point under argument had been already decided upon the 4th Clause; and they were now upon the 28th Clause, giving the Commissioners power to allow two years to complete works, and he certainly did not think that that Amendment affected their privilege in any way. LORD J. MANNERS said, that if this 4th Clause was so great a violation of the privileges of the House, what opinion ought that House to entertain of Her Majesty's Ministers in the House of Lords, who had made no objection to it, but had generally spoken of it as an improvement, although it was now said to be so flagrant an infringement of their privileges, The clause had certainly been passed under a misunderstanding, without the knowledge of the House; but if the present clause would raise the same question, he should certainly vote in favour of assenting to the Lords' Amendment. SIR G. GREY said, that this clause would not raise the question, for it related only to the extension of time for completing works and making payments; and although it came within the objection stated by the Speaker, because it related to the distribution of the payments, it in no way bore upon the other question, as to the construction of mills and farm buildings. It would be useless, therefore, to divide the House. MR. F. MACKENZIE: Then what was the use of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of Ireland? The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE QUER said, that the 4th Clause had certainly been decided; and with regard to the present clause, he objected to it on the merits of the Amendment, as well as on the ground that it was inconsistent with the privileges of that House. After a few words from MR. LEFROY, MR. M. J. O'CONNELL admitted, that the attainment of the objects specified in the Lords' Amendment was desirable; but as he deemed the privileges of the House to be of greater value, he would vote for disallowing the Amendment, and he hoped that on a question of so much importance, hon. Gentlemen would not divide the House. Amendment disallowed. Other Amendments considered seriatim, some agreed to, and others disagreed to. Committee appointed to draw up reasons to be offered to the Lords at a conference for disagreeing to their Lordships' Amend ment. DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) BILL. House in Committee on Destitute Persons (Ireland) Bill. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER stated that it would be in the recollection of hon. Gentlemen that at an early period of the Session his noble Friend the First Lord of the Treasury intimated that measures would be brought forward as soon as possible to put an end to the system of relief in Ireland by public works, and that another system would be proposed to be carried out by a Relief Commission and relief committees, and by the distribution of food to destitute persons. An Act was passed for that purpose, and power was given to raise funds by way of loan, on the security of the rates to be levied, to an amount not exceeding 300,000l. He had himself subsequently proposed in Committee of Supply, that a sum not exceeding 500,000l. should be granted in aid of rates for the purpose of relieving the destitute poor until the harvest should enable them to be maintained from the produce of the soil. What he was now about to propose was, that a further advance should be made from the Consolidated Fund by way of loan on the security of rates to be levied: and in some future Committee of Supply he should have to propose that a further sum be granted in aid of those rates, in order to carry on the relief of the destitute poor from the present time to the harvest. On Friday last a return was moved for, stating the whole amount of loan and advances VOL. XCII. Third Series f since the beginning of last Session of Parliament, which he had hoped would before this time have been in the hands of hon. Members. But he trusted it would be so to-morrow or next day. As to the advances made under preceding Acts, he believed that on former occasions he had stated the amount; and he was now prepared to state that the sum advanced under the Public Works Act, since August last, was 4,700,000l. He was happy to say that the public works system had, as nearly as possible, been brought to a close; and throughout the greater part of Ireland, with the exception of about seventy electoral divisions, the new system had been brought into operation. He was also most happy to say, from the reports received by Her Majesty's Government, that wherever the residents were active in the execution of the Act, it seemed to answer the expectations which had been formed as to its efficacy. It was found that the new system was a greatly improved substitute for the system of relief by public works. He was not sure that it was popular in Ireland; but neither was he sure that the want of popularity was a very bad sign; for the former system was to a very considerable extent abused by all parties concerned in its administration. As soon as it was announced that that system was about to cease, a rush was to a certain extent made on the public works. Upon those public works no fewer than 730,000 persons were employed in one way or another. The relief committees who ought to have sifted the claims of applicants, only added numbers upon numbers. No exertions were made by the superintending officers to apply a check. His noble Friend (Lord G. Bentinck) complained the other day of the number of persons employed in superintending; but he believed the noble Lord would find that there was no very considerable number so employed, taking into account the numbers admitted to relief. The number of overseers was little more than 11,000; the number of persons employed on the public works exceeded 700,000. The check-clerks were included; and, taking those round numbers, it would be found that there was only one overseer to a gang of sixty-six persons. It was not till the very strong measure was taken of ordering a forcible reduction on the 23rd of March, that any considerable reduction was effected. That measure was attended with complete success; it came at a proper time, when it was desirable that the people 2 X should be employed in the cultivation of | rates, brings home taxation more immediately to the soil. The sowing of the spring crops was the result of discharging those persons. The measure was afterwards repeated, and a further reduction effected. A passive resistance to a considerable extent had been made to carrying out the new system; the committees were exceedingly slow in organizing themselves, and but for the vigorous measures which were taken, it might be doubted whether the new system could have been carried into operation by the time fixed for its commencement. The result of that measure was that the expenditure of the Board of Works was reduced very considerably. For the week ending the 13th of March, the expenditure was 259,000l.; for the week ending the 1st of May, the expenditure was 151,000l.; for the week ending the 29th of May, the total expenditure for all purposes was 53,000l., including the drainage work, the relief work-everything, in short, carried on under the Board of Works. The sum expended on mere relief works for that week was about 40,000l. The expenditure, therefore, of the Board of Works had been reduced one-fifth of what it was on the 13th of March. The new system of relief was in operation in 1,981 electoral divisions, there being 2,050 in all; so that there were no more than seventy exceptions. Making a similar calculation as to the amount of rations issued, these averaged 2,223,000 per day. The expenditure had been kept within just limits; and results which he had not ventured to anticipate early in autumn had been realized. The accounts from all parts of Ireland tended to show such favourable results; and, at an earlier period of the evening, he would have entered further into details. But he must refer to a letter from Sir J. Burgoyne, stating his experience. The letter was dated May 29, and Sir J. Burgoyne said the landowners and landholders than the road system did; and their minds will, consequently, be sooner impressed with the conviction that the period has arrived when they must employ the people on their estates or farms, or support them in idleness from the produce of them." It was to the extension of that feeling, more than to anything else, that they must look for improvement; and he might state, on the authority of another letter, that the new system of administration afforded an exceedingly good test of destitution; it was found that those who were not destitute, rather than live on the food distributed in a cooked shape as it was now given, were desirous to procure employment in ordinary labour. Generally speaking, such was the case; but he was sorry to say there were instances in which parties had been doing their utmost to extort money even beyond what could possibly be required for an electoral division. In one place it appeared that the relief committee had sent in an estimate for 2,000 persons more than were in the whole electoral division. He wished further to state, that, in the administration of the funds for the relief of the poor in Ireland, pains were taken to encourage, as much as possible, the voluntary exertions of parties themselves, and in many cases he was happy to be able to state that the wealthier ratepayers subscribed voluntarily for the purpose of relieving the less wealthy persons who were subject to to the payment of rates; and especially in the north had that principle been acted on in the most advantageous manner, and with the most satisfactory results; when the rates came up to a certain amount-when they rose to a certain amount in the pound-the additional grants were made for the aid of ratepayer, but not until then. The last report brought the statements up to the 10th of May, and from that it appeared that the loan with which the Committees had been debited, was 77,000l. As respected the whole of the sums to be advanced, the "There is a greater tendency to keep down the expenditure and the evil consequences of en-greatest security against lavish expenditure couraging a loose system than I expected. The number of destitute to be provided for, will be, I think, much less than I first calculated, and our inspecting officers are generally working with zeal, activity, and, in many cases, with success." He had also received letters from the north of Ireland showing that the same effects had been produced; and he would read a portion of another letter from a most intelligent magistrate, Mr. Stokes, of Tralee, who said was, that the loans were secured upon the guarantee of the rates to be forthwith levied. This operated as a great inducement to the ratepayers to come forward for the purpose of excluding improper persons from the lists. Upon this part of the subject the Government had been furnished with the following report : Bailieborough Union, May 15. "The lists of those receiving relief were strictly revised, and the ratepayers evinced the most laud"The ration system has certainly one very im- able zeal in unmasking any imposition that exportant effect. Its support, by the levy of poor-isted. They came forward in a body, and in con |