suffering. I ask the House whether this I will admit, also, that with regard to is a state of things in which ordinary re- many of the gentry, they are encouraged medies could be applied? I ask them whe- rather to promote those whom they wish to ther it is a state of circumstances in which protect and favour, instead of distributing usual rules could be adopted by a Govern- that relief they are empowered to give acment? If the answer of the House had cording to the most impartial arrangements. been-"Let these people exert themselves; I quite admit that those abuses have sprung let those who have been united to us now up, and I will admit further, they were for nearly half a century, find their own abuses which a Government was bound to way out of these difficulties, and bear the foresee, and which we could not well have calamity as they may "—if such had been avoided foreseeing in adopting any scheme the answer of the House, I must say, that of that kind. What, however, I say is, I believe that in such a state of society, if that even these abuses, great as they have left alone, you would have had irreparable been, calamitous in their effects as they confusion-you would have had immense may have been, are much less than the numbers of deaths, greatly beyond any mor- sufferings, evils, and confusion-than that tality that has occurred, and such a state demoralised state of the whole country— of anger, discord, and animosity of class which we would have had to apprehend if against class, and of all classes against the we had not adopted these measures. More Imperial Government of this country, that than this: after these measures shall have it would have been-I will not say impos- run their course, in future years there will sible, but almost impossible to bring so- be nothing which shall prevent Ireland ciety in that country into such a condition being in a better state than she has ever as to be recomposed until after a very long before been at any former period. I conperiod had elapsed. Now, when I say, sider myself, that if the people do not again that such would have been the state of place their reliance on the potato-if they society in Ireland, if the Irish had been do not remain in that low state of society left alone, I do not mean to say that the which the exclusive use of potato food has measures proposed and carried into opera- produced, connected with other peculiarition by the Government, were such as the ties in the condition of Ireland-if that is utmost wisdom could have devised, or such the case-if the Poor Law acts, as I believe were best calculated to relieve the it will act, beneficially, in connecting vaemergency which arose; but I do say that rious classes in that country in one comthey were in some degree calculated to mon duty-then I do believe that meeting meet that emergency. For instance, the a great calamity with imperfect remedies, system of public works greatly resembled and remedies which have been liable to the mode of relief adopted in this country many abuses, will yet have produced a in times of extraordinary difficulty, when good effect in that frightful state into which applied as a test of destitution. In Ire- we have fallen, and will lay the foundation land, however, it has not proved a test of for a future condition of greater comfort destitution. It has been found that a sys- and greater prosperity in that country. I tem which answers extremely well in Eng- am sorry to detain the House with these land, has been a prolific source of abuse in observations; but as the hon. and learned Ireland. Parliament has tried, since the Gentleman so often takes the opportunity beginning of this Session, a different sys- of passing these remarks, and as it might tem, which seems to promise better results, be considered and taken for granted that as those who appear to be in distress do the Government admit their measures to not come so readily to receive rations, as have failed, and that they ought to have to receive money, and therefore the receipt abstained-I wish to assert, that I am of of rations seems to be a more adequate test the opinion still which I entertained at the of destitution than any which we have tried commencement of the Session, that it was before. At the same time, I do not mean right to interfere; that I do not know wheto say that the objections which have been ther it would have been possible for any urged by the hon. and learned Gentleman other Government-it would have been imhave no weight. I do not believe that the possible for us-without any experience of Irish people are naturally averse to labour, such a calamity, to adopt the measures but believing that the people are averse, best suited to that calamity and the chafrom their circumstances, to labour, I con-racter of the people of Ireland. And I sider that that indisposition to labour has been encouraged by what has occurred.

as

think it was wise to incur a very great expenditure, even at the expense of the people

hitherto they have not provided labour. My opinion is, that this New Poor Law will induce those classes to employ a greater quantity of labour, so that those few who are left to be supported by the poor rates will be in reality destitute; and in this manner, the future improvement of Ireland may be discerned through the gloom and darkness of the present moment. I hope the House will consent to grant these sums. I do not ask the House to grant them in any absolute confidence that the money will be applied without any abuse, and that the revision of the lists shall be so perfect that there will not take place any of the former misappropriations. All I can say is, the best exertions of all the officers of the Government, of those intelligent men at the head of those departments in Ireland as well as those serving under them, will be given to the correction of all such abuses; and in coping with so great and unprecedented a calamity, we ask excuses for the errors we have committed, and support in the efforts we will continue to make.

of England-even though we have exposed | therefore say, that while giving great asthem to very considerable sufferings, and sistance, great, large, and generous assistto an enhancement of the prices of their ance, as I think this country has given, food-rather than to have let Ireland fall both by Act of Parliament and by spontainto that state which, for my part, I cannot neous acts of individuals, in order to meet contemplate without the greatest horror, the calamity of the present year, we should and which I should ever regret having oc- at the same time take care to lay the founcasioned. The right hon. Gentleman op- dation of a system by which hereafter such posite has asked what check we have as relief shall be afforded by those who hold to the future operation of the system? We the property of Ireland. My own belief is, have not, according to Act of Parliament, that the produce of Ireland, the rents of as he supposes, a check restraining any fur- the proprietors, and the profits of the farther sums from being issued without the levy-mers, are such as to enable them to suping of rates; but we have a certain discretion port, not only the labouring classes, but given to us, which discretion we shall exer-likewise those destitute classes for whom cise according to the best of our judgment. Where we find that, although the rates are small, and ordered to be levied, yet that they are not levied, and that the absence of levying proceeds not from the entire want of means, but a wish to avoid the payment, we have a discretion, which in such cases I think we are bound to exercise, in not making any further advances till satisfied that the rates have been collected from those whose circumstances admit of their paying them. In such cases the board of guardians, if they refuse to collect, may be dissolved, and a new board appointed, which shall be ordered to obtain such sums as may be required. I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman opposite that it would be right to use that power; and I do not think we ought to be satisfied that there is money in the Exchequer to be applied to Ireland, without considering what is the ability of the ratepayers in that country to meet the expenses which may be incurred. On the contrary, I think myself that, proceeding from a system of works which were entirely gratuitous, to that system which consists very greatly of advances, but partly of rates, we are accustoming the ratepayers to consider what the charge will be to them; and we are inducing them to look narrowly into the revision of the lists of distressed people. My right hon. Friend has given some instances in which that has taken place. I have seen a great many more letters from different parties, in which they state, that in this revision the ratepayers had been beneficially occupied; and I think, in proportion as the assistance from the Exchequer is withdrawn, and relief comes more entirely from themselves, in that proportion will the country be benefited, and those who are relieved be really destitute, instead of those who by some favour of a member of a relief committee have got places on the relief lists. I should

SIR D. NORREYS would like to know how far the Government would undertake to complete the public works in Ireland, or whether they intended to introduce any measure to compel the completion of those works? He firmly believed that the Government had the best intentions towards Ireland; but they had erred from the very commencement. It was urged upon them over and over to confine their efforts to smaller districts, where abuses could not exist without instant detection. Instead, however, of listening to those suggestions, they made the districts twenty, thirty, and forty miles in circuit; and the result was, of course, extravagance and abuse. He believed the future prospects of Ireland were of the most deplorable kind. He saw no means of getting out of the diffi

House resumed, and adjourned at a quar- he thought the Bill very deficient in clearter to Two o'clock.

ness; it gave the officer who preferred imprisonment to corporal punishment the right of postponing that punishment, even if his ship was in the middle of the Atlantic, and no admiral was at hand to refer to, though the delay might occasion the loss of the vessel. Prompt punishment was in such cases most frequently the best possible mode of punishment, and often the only means of maintaining that discipline without which no ship would be safe for four-and-twenty hours. His principal objection was, that the Bill did not contain the whole of the law on the subject of punishment. An order of the Admiralty had the effect of law, and there was such an order regulating punishments in port; and The EARL of HARDWICKE said, that the Bill before them regulated the infliction

of punishments out of port. The whole ought to be included in the Act, so that the whole matter might be placed on the same footing.

The EARL of AUCKLAND said, that the operation of the one was very local, and the other very general, and he was afraid the attempt to combine them would be attended with disadvantage.

EARL GREY said, that the Bill placed a discretionary power in the hands of the officers; and he begged to ask the House whether the likelihood of officers abusing that discretionary power, which was the only point in the objections of the noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough), was any good reason why they should be relieved from all restrictions in relation to corporal punishment?

The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH replied, that what he said was, that the law should be made distinct and clear, which was not the case at present.

After some further discussion, certain Amendments were reserved until the report should be brought up, and the Bill passed through Committee. House adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Tuesday, June 1, 1847.

MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1° Warwick County Prison.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. F. Scott, from several

places, against the Marriage (Scotland) Bill.-By Mr.

Chaplin, from Salisbury, for Regulating the Qualification

of Chemists and Druggists. By Viscount Ebrington, from Members of the Chambers of Commerce of the Port of Plymouth, against the Repeal of the Navigation Laws. By Mr. F. Scott, from several places, against the Registering Births, &c. (Scotland), and Marriage (Scot

land) Bills.

was Secretary of State, Sir H. Pottinger
brought under the notice of the Govern-
ment the necessity of building a church
for the colony of Hong-Kong, and inquired
whether any contribution would be made
from colonial sources.
The reply was,
that if one-third were raised by private
subscriptions, the remaining two-thirds
would be contributed from the colonial re-
venue, and one-third was subscribed ac-
cordingly. Estimates and plans were ob-
tained, and an ordinance was passed carry-
ing the proposal into effect; and, as a
matter of course, it became the duty of
the head of the Colonial Department to
sanction that ordinance, as it was in con-
formity with the pledge given under which
the money was subscribed. With regard
to the second ordinance, he was not able to
give any information at present, inasmuch
as he had not received the ordinance, and
knew nothing about it.

TAXING COSTS-RAILWAYS (IRELAND).

MR. GOULBURN had a question to ask the Solicitor General for Ireland. By an Act passed in 1844, a regulation took place in the courts of law in Dublin which very considerably reduced the expenditure of those courts, and settled that there should be only one Master in the Court of Queen's Bench; particular duties were assigned to him, and the taxation of costs was transferred to another officer in order that he might attend to those duties. But by the Lands' Clauses Consolidation Act, there was thrown upon the Master, in common with Masters of the Queen's Bench in England, the duty of investigating all questions of costs arising out of certain transactions with railway companies; and the effect had been that, there being only DR. BOWRING inquired whether an one Master in Ireland, while there were ordinance issued by the Governor of Hong-five in England, he was overwhelmed by Kong, dated the 11th of March last, ap- this class of business, and incapacitated propriating 4,6007. of the revenue of that from discharging his other duties. colony to the building of an Anglican it intended to correct this error by bringchurch, for the exclusive service of the ing in a Bill for that purpose? members of the Establishment, had received the sanction of Her Majesty's Government? And also, whether an ordinance of the same date, which repealed the ordinance of 1844, by which British subjects had certain rights of appeal in the Supreme Court of Judicature against consular decisions, had been approved by the Home Colonial Government?

HONG-KONG.

MR. HAWES begged to state, in reference to the first ordinance inquired about, that in 1843, when Lord Stanley

Was

MR. MONAHAN stated, that the provision of the Bill passed in 1845 might perhaps have been introduced by oversight. The framer might not have been aware that the officer named therein was not the proper officer for the taxation of costs. That officer had stated his objection to having functions imposed upon him which did not fall to his particular office, and urged that it was only right that he should receive remuneration. The officer to whom it had been proposed that the duty should

SIR R. PEEL: Having given a civil MR. SPEAKER replied, that the geanswer to the parties, I declined to inter-neral understanding of the House seemed