which the present Ministers of the Crown | argument might be made use of in a tohad over and over again assured them tally opposite direction, because, if they would be in the highest degree inimical to were so prosperous as he thought proper the interests of the country. He begged to represent them, they did not stand in to recall the circumstances of the case to need of any pecuniary assistance. The the recollection of hon. Members. At the fact of their prosperity was the best possicommencement of the present Session, the ble reason why the money should not be noble Lord the Member for Lynn proposed given to them. It was said, that if the to the House a measure for establishing Government interfered in matters of morailways in Ireland. He hoped the House ney lending, they might go into the marwould also recollect, that at the time that ket against any private parties, and with proposition was brought forward, this coun- the power and influence of Government try was in a very different condition from might very materially operate upon transthat in which it was at the present mo- actions with which they had no right to inment. There was then much apparent terfere. If those were the circumstances, commercial prosperity. There was no and those the grounds upon which the propressure upon the money market. Ac-position of the noble Lord the Member for cording to the plan of the noble Lord the Member for Lynn, there certainly was to be an advance for the Irish railways of 16,000,000l.; but then it was to be advanced in sums of 4,000,000l. each year. There was at that time, he repeated, considerable prosperity; there was no alarm; and yet the Government opposed the proposition of the noble Lord the Member for Lynn in a manner the most unqualified and unyielding; and now, what did the Chancellor of the Exchequer propose to do? Nothing less than to lend 620,000l. to three railway companies. Yet what was the language which he held when the noble Lord the Member for Lynn brought forward his Motion upon a similar subject? The hon. and learned Gentleman was proceeding to quote the precise terms which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had used upon the occasion in question Lynn was rejected, what were the circumstances that had since arisen that could justify Her Majesty's Government in taking that course which, during the present Session of Parliament, they deeply condemned when it proceeded from the noble Member for Lynn? At all events, the proposition of the noble Lord was not a peddling measure; it was a bold, if not a wise plan; but the present scheme possessed nothing of the recommendations which attached to that of the noble Member for Lynn. Let the House look at the circumstances. They had certainly undergone a great change in the interval; but it was a change which made much more against the plan of the Government than in its favour. The changes which had occurred were most vital and important. At the time which he had been describing there was no alarm, no danger; but what was the situation of the country now? There was excitement and apprehension throughout the country. Was it not a fact that the Chancellor of the Exchequer received daily communicaMR. ROEBUCK: If he quoted in any tions from Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow, respect erroneously, it would be from want Leeds, and the other great towns? Had of memory, and not in consequence of the he not received several alarming commuleast wish to misrepresent the arguments nications from the Bank of England? Was used by the right hon. Gentleman. The it not a fact, that even within the last right hon. Gentleman might, on that occa- twenty-four hours the difficulties of the sion, have used such arguments as these, money market had increased; that no viz., that it did not become the Govern- money could now be obtained for the best ment to enact the part of a great money bills, or at all events that the rate of dislender; that it formed no part of the duty count was so enormous that prudent men of the Government to provide 16,000,000%. hesitated to convert any paper into money? for the use of any set of public companies. That, then, was the time at which the Amongst the arguments which the Chan- Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to cellor of the Exchequer might use was add to the burdens which the country althis-and probably he had-that the rail-ready endured. Why did he not, on the ways which it was thus intended to sup- contrary, consent to the proposition long port, were pre-eminently prosperous, and ago made, when an hon. Member of that therefore worthy of confidence; but that House told him that he alone could set MR. SPEAKER: The hon. and learned Member cannot quote reports of debates which occurred during the present Ses sion. now. would never hear any more of the right hon. Gentleman's proposition. If he failed, and the money were afterwards voted, he believed that the people of this country would read to that House and the Ministers a lesson they would not soon forget. The hon. and learned Member concluded by moving as an Amendment, "That the other Orders of the Day be now read." The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, he considered that he should be setting a very bad example if, by going into the discussion of the question raised by the hon. and learned Member, he were to adopt the irregular course taken by him. The hon. and learned Member had not only replied to a speech made by him in a former debate, but he had also been arguing on a proposition which was not substantially before the House. The hon. and learned Member ought to have waited till the House went into Committee. The course he had proposed to pursue was, to have asked the House to go into Committee, and in Committee to have made his statement. He hoped the House would agree to that course, and go into Committee, so that the proceedings might be carried on in accordance with the usual forms of the House. 15,000 men to work upon the Irish railways? What distinguished this case from the former one, except that we were now in greater danger? And it appeared, too, that the companies were to have this money from the Government at a rate of interest at which they could not obtain it anywhere else. Was it the situation of Ireland that the right hon. Gentleman urged as his reason for this advance? In what respect was that situation changed from what it was when the right hon. Gentleman opposed the noble Lord's proposition? The argument used in Mr. Trevelyan's letter, then so much relied on, applied equally He said, that what was wanted in Ireland, was relief for the destitute, the aged, the women and children, and that measures introduced with a view to promote employment would not meet the emergency. Upon that letter it was argued by the Government at that time that the noble Lord's proposition would do no good; but the Government had themselves since attempted the employment system, and it had broken down; so that they were obliged to resort to the system of giving actual food, because the other system had deranged the whole of the ordinary transactions of life. They were called on to vote 620,000l. for Irish railways, after not only deranging the whole social system of Ireland by pecuniary advances to that country; but also the whole social and monetary system of England. For it was of no use to ascribe the disorder of our finances to what was called Sir R. Peel's Bill. It was caused by the Government having taken the money of the people of England in large masses; they had pushed into the market and deranged the whole monetary system. And yet, in the midst of this hubbub, when to the state of things impending might almost be applied the phrase of the French orator, "a hideous bankruptcy," down came the Chancellor MR. HUME expressed his great surof the Exchequer, with his smiling face prise at the division that had taken place. and gay demeanour, to make this pitiful He was surprised that there should be so proposal, to add the last feather to the many in that House who were prepared at weight that was crushing the suffering the present time to vote away the public people of this country. He appealed to money. His hon. and learned Friend had, every Gentleman who valued consistency he conceived, taken the right time to put and especially to those who used not long his objection to the grant of any money since to talk so much about it—he appeal-whatever for the purpose proposed. Every ed to those who formed the majority against Member who had just voted for going into the Bill of the noble Lord the Member for Committee, had pledged himself to vote Lynn-to support him in his present at some money for that purpose. ["No, no!”] tempt to prevent the House from going Yes; it was now a question of "how much?' into Committee. If his opposition proved-not a question whether any at all should successful, they might depend on it they be given. Any one who had voted with On the question that the words proposed to be left out, stand part of the question, The House divided:-Ayes 203; Noes Majority 189. 14: Collett, J. Duncan, G. List of the NOES. Escott, B. Phillips, M. TELLERS. Duncombe, T. Main question again put, House in Committee. the majority, who should afterwards vote | is calculated to produce the very effects against any grant for Irish railways, which it would endeavour to prevent. Hon. would have stultified himself, by having Gentlemen have been in possession of docufirst voted for, and then against, such pro- ments which show that since the last pubposition. lication of returns, the condition of the Bank of England has materially improved. They will find that the returns of April 24, as compared with those of April 17, show a considerable improvement in that condition; that the liabilities of the Bank have diminished, and her means of meeting them have increased. This morning I have had an interview with the Governor of the Bank of England; and I was glad to learn that even since Saturday last the condition of the Bank has considerably improved. I am informed that the Bank has been enabled during the last week, on two separate days, to give increased facilities in the money market; and I am also happy to say, that the deputation who had an interview with my noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) and myself, two days ago, to represent the distressed state of affairs in the north of England, were much better satisfied today than when they came to us two or three days ago. I have even been told by one person who participated in the alarm which has prevailed, that there are more bank-notes in circulation than he thought necessary; and that if the pressure had been much greater than it has been, we might have gone through it and sustained it without any serious consequences, if it had only come upon them less suddenly. It is clear that the effort which the Bank of England thought it necessary to make, has been made. It is now over; and, although the returns show that prudence and caution may be necessary, I think I may congratulate the House on the fact, that the extreme pressure of the last fortnight may be said to be at an end. The increased price of stocks to-day may be said to be owing to a circumstance which was perfectly unforeseen, and on which no one could have calculated. ought not, perhaps, to build much upon this. [The right hon. Gentleman was understood to refer to the announcement of the intention of the Emperor of Russia to make large investments in English Government Securities.] But we may something upon the fact, that our exchanges with Europe are more favourable; that the advices from America are of a far more satisfactory character; that the Bank of England does not expect that it will be obliged to continue that extreme The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, I believe that it will be convenient, before going further, that I should make a short statement to the Committee; because, although I had an opportunity on a former occasion of addressing the House, it was at a very late hour of the night, and I have found that no inconsiderable misapprehension prevails as to the views and intentions of the Government on this subject. Sir, the question now before the House divides itself into two distinct subjects, which I do not say are unconnected; but it is clear, from what passed three or four nights ago, that we shall have to consider the question of the monetary state of the country that we shall have to consider the operation of the laws regulating the currency, as well as to consider the propriety of voting a sum to be placed at the disposal of the Exchequer Loan Commissioners for the construction of railways in Ireland. As to the first question, that of the monetary condition of the country, I have already had an opportunity of making a statement which I hope may have been sufficient to set right the misapprehension under which many hon. Members laboured; and to lead them to a more correct appreciation as to the facts, and also as to the conduct of the Government. I endeavoured to correct that misapprehension, and to prove to the House, that, so far as the law relating to the currency is concerned, the present state of the money market is owing, not to the operation of that Act, but to a neglect of the sound principles on which that Act was framed. I think it is expedient that I should now make a short statement in reference to the state of panic and alarm-for I can qualify it by no less strong terms-which has prevailed for some days past in the city, and also in several parts of the country. The extent to which this panic and alarm have prevailed, does seem to me, Sir, to be utterly and altogether without foundation. Extreme caution and care may be required at the present moment, not only on the part of that great establishment the Bank of England, but also on the part of the country banks. But the present apprehension, in my opinion, goes far beyond any measure of caution and prudence, and We build pressure which it has recently felt to be ne- | would be devoted to the relief works, but cessary; and that the demand for gold from that advances for all the purposes of reAmerica is likely to be less than was expect- lieving Irish distress, and all advances for ed. I do not say this to prevent persons from employing persons, would be so much still taking all possible care and caution, but taken away and subtracted from the reto remove the excess of alarm, which is lief funds. And having made this statequite unfounded, and likely to prove more ment on more than one occasion, I do disastrous than the real evil. Sir, turning not understand how anybody can fancy from that part of the subject, I now ap- that I intend to issue additional Excheproach the course which the Government quer-bills, or to raise an additional loan intend to take respecting Irish railways, for Irish purposes. Of the two measures and upon which misrepresentations have I just now alluded to, the most advantaken place, not only as to the nature of tageous was felt to be that for the imthe assistance to be given, but it has also provement of landed property in Ireland. been said that they intended to raise an It was felt that the sum advanced was inadditional loan for the purpose. Nothing sufficient; and before the Bill left the House, is further from their intentions. In the the sum was increased from 1,000,0007. statement which my noble Friend (Lord to 1,500,000l., leaving 500,000l. only J. Russell) made early in the present Ses- available, instead of 1,000,000l., for the sion, and which I, to a certain extent, reclamation of waste lands in Ireland. repeated in the course of the same de- But hon. Members know that great difbate, we described the course which the ferences of opinion existed as to the adGovernment had taken, and were about to vances necessary for reclaiming waste take, for the relief of distress in Ireland, lands; and it was the opinion of many and for providing employment for the peo- hon. Gentlemen that it was inexpedient ple. My noble Friend stated, that we had that it should be a compulsory measure. had in the autumn no other course to take, We felt doubtful of the reception of the and, indeed, no option on the subject, but Bill with compulsory powers. After disto pursue the same mode of relief which cussing the subject, we determined to had been commenced by the late Govern- abandon the compulsory provisions of the ment by employing persons on relief works, Bill; but in doing so we abandoned a advancing the whole of the money neces- great portion of that which had rendered sary for that purpose, a moiety of which it most available for practical purposes is to be repaid by the Irish baronies. in those parts of the country in which Subsequently we proposed to substitute employment was most wanted. We then relief of distress by the distribution of made an attempt to put the Bill into a food instead of employment on the relief practical shape, as a voluntary measure; works. But I said, also, that the Go- but after consulting with several lawvernment thought it advisable to foster yers and other hon. Members of exprivate enterprise as much as possible, and perience, the result of our deliberations to give employment to the people in that convinced us that it would be so exceedway. Two Bills were introduced relative ingly difficult to put the Bill into a shape to Ireland: one a Bill which has passed the in which it could be made to work this House, a Bill for the improvement of land- year, that the Government were compelled ed property, for which 1,000,000l. of to abandon any intention of passing that money was voted; and another a Bill for Bill through Parliament this Session. I the reclamation of waste lands, which do think it would have been impossible to would have given another 1,000,000l. to pass a Bill which could have been brought carry that Act into effect. The result of into operation this year. I know that these two measures, if they had passed, there are many persons who attach great would have been, that the sum of 2,000,000l. importance to that Bill. But my hon. would have been voted by Parliament for Friend behind me (Mr. Poulett Scrope) the encouragement of private enterprise in who cheers me, would not be, I think, so Ireland, and for employing the people. attached to that Bill, if he was aware of And I stated further, that I proposed a the immediate difficulties in the way of loan of 8,000,000l. for the purpose of as- carrying it into effect. Well, the Bill sisting the relief of distress in Ireland, and for the reclamation of waste lands havthat a part of that sum would be appor- ing been abandoned, the sum of 500,000l. tioned to the objects I have stated. applicable for that Bill is released from never said, that the whole of that loan those purposes, and is therefore available I The works, as far as the character of them is concerned, are beautifully executed, and reflect credit on all employed in them; and this, too, in the I visited are all of the greatest importance as reremotest and most neglected districts. The roads productive works, and, I do not hesitate to say, will have advanced the civilization of those parts at least thirty years; whilst, by opening some thousand acres of remarkably fine mountain, the be increased, and which must become a very imfuture means of subsistence to a large extent will portant object." I have another account from the county of "The great bulk of the roads in this barony that have been passed (I know it as a magistrate who was present when they were passed) are useful and productive undertakings, opening mountain tracts and facilitating the transit of sea malater, the country would have had made at their own expense, and certainly for not so small a sum as the moiety of their cost, which is to fall on the cesspayers of this country." nure and fuel; most of them roads that, sooner or either for the purposes of relief works, | of Ireland, which it is exceedingly imporor for any mode of encouraging private tant to execute. In many parts of Ireland, enterprise in Ireland which may be con- especially the wilder parts, the works exesidered most desirable. With regard cuted have been of the most beneficial to relief works, the House is aware character. An officer of the Board of that they have been discontinued as ra- Works, writing from Cork, sayspidly as possible; and upon this subject I am able to make a statement to the House which I hope will be considered satisfactory. The number of persons employed on the public works in March was 734,000. A reduction of 20 per cent was made at the latter end of March, which was effected without the least difficulty, and which reduced the number to 579,000. A further reduction took place also without any difficulty, and another reduction will take place on the 1st of May; which will bring down the number of persons employed in Ireland to about 280,000. Thus we have a maximum number of 734,000 in March, which we shall be able to reduce to probably not more than 280,000 by the 1st of next month. Sir, I stated on Monday night how considerable the reduction was in the amount of wages paid to these persons; a reduction of about one-half in the weekly amount having taken place since the beginning of March, as compared with the end of April. An hon. Gentleman has asked me what increase has taken place in the sums placed at the disposal of the relief committees in Ireland? I am now able to say, that a very small sum has been advanced for these purposes, and that the persons discharged from the public works have been mainly absorbed in employment upon the land. The seed time and the setting of potatoes are now nearly concluded; and, from the accounts we receive from Ireland, we have strong reason to believe that a much larger quantity of wheat, of spring crops, and of green crops, has been sown than might be supposed; and that in parts of Ireland nearly the ordinary quantity of potatoes has been planted. In some parts of Ireland, indeed, we are informed there has been found an adequate quantity of seed, and that sufficient potatoes have not only been reserved for seed, but some have been left as an article of consumption. We propose to reduce the employment on the public works, but we do not propose to discontinue giving employment to the people in parts of Ireland, because the works in some places would be left in a useless state, and it is necessary to finish them; and there are many works, in various parts The general character of the Government works has been useful; but where we propose to continue them it will be as public and beneficial works, and not merely as relief works. Parties will be paid, reverting to the old system, according to the work actually done. We propose to abolish the vicious system in which public works and relief are so mingled, that it is impossible either for the works to be well done, or the relief to be well administered. There are, however, parts of Ireland in which works are not so readily to be found, and there we are obliged to have a substitute for them. Sir, one of the great railway lines in Ireland is of so peculiar and so exceptional a character, that it would be advantageous to make that company an advance under any circumstances. The larger portion of the advance it is now proposed to make, is to the Great South Western Railway--the great line of communication which connects Dublin with Limerick, and Dublin with Cork. When that line was first proposed, a communication was made to the right hon. Baronet opposite, who was then First Lord of the Treasury, and the right hon. Gentleman sitting near him, who then filled the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer, who replied as follows, in a document which has been laid before Parliament:-- |