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HANSARD'S

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES,

IN THE SEVENTH SESSION OF THE FOURTEENTH PAR

LIAMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND, APPOINTED TO MEET 11 NOVEMBER, 1841, AND FROM THENCE CONTINUED TILL 19 JANUARY, 1847, IN THE TENTH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF

HER MAJESTY QUEEN VICTORIA.

FOURTH VOLUME OF THE SESSION.

Amendment.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Yorkshire. The petitioners prayed that

means might be taken to ensure the adopTuesday, April 27, 1846.

tion of proper means of ventilation, and MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS. 1a Lunatic Asylums.

also that an efficient system of inspection Commons Inclosure (No. 2); Prisons (Ireland); Incum- might be introduced as likely to be of bered Estates (Ireland.) 3e and passed :-Customs Duties; Insolvent Debtors Act utility in the prevention of accidents. So

far as he was personally concerned, he had Receired the Royal Assent.-Fever (Ireland).

no objection to a system of inspection, a PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Morley and a great number of other places, against the proposed Government system already in operation as to some Flan of Education. From Awre, against any further other purposes, and he had no doubt it Concession or Support being granted to the Roman Ca- might be advantageously extended to this favour of the proposed Government Plan of Education. purpose also. -By the Marquess of Lansdowne, from Guardians of the The Bishop of DURHAM urged the Mountmelick Union, against any Clause being inserted in the Bill which would throw the Responsibility of

great importance of some means being Supporting the Poor on the Occupying Tenant.—- By Lord adopted to prevent colliery accidents. The Monteagie

, from the Parish of Christchurch, Surrey, for subject was well worthy the attention of the Better Observance of the Sabbath.–From Mary: Her Majesty's Government, for the loss of Bill. — From North Greenhoe and the Eastern Division life was far greater than any one not conof Norfolk, !or the Repeal of the Malt Tax.

nected with the working of collieries could

imagine. COLLIERY EXPLOSIONS.

LORD WHARNCLIFFE hoped the GoVARL FITZWILLIAM presented a pe- vernment would turn their attention to this quired into the death of the seventy-three he feared the petitioners expected more persons who recently perished from the advantages to arise from a system of inspecexplosion of the foul air in a coal mine tion than it would be found capable of afnear Barnsley, in the West Riding of fording. In factories it might be good, but

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VOL. XCII. {Series}

in coal mines the benefit would be extremely possible for the owner to get any third doubtful. Besides, the parties themselves party to clear off the incumbrances, or to generally maintained inspection, and these purchase the estate. The person who was accidents occurred for the most part to advance the money could have no sethrough neglect on the part of the suf- curity for it, as he could not get the titleferers of the rules laid down.

deeds until the money was paid to the first LORD CAMPBELL assured the noble incumbrancer. The latter party could, in Earl that Her Majesty's Government selt such a case, continue the incumbrance, the great importance of the subject men- and throw the greatest obstacles in the tioned in the petition. The loss of life in way of clearing the estate of it. His posicoal mines was most lamentable, and it tion was in fact actually that described by was sufficient to bring discredit on the na- Lord Eldon, who on being asked for adtional character that means were not taken vice by a first mortgagoe, told him to put to abate it. He feared, however, that in the title-deeds in a box and to sit on it, spection could do but little in that respect. and that he might then set the world at The best inspection and supervision was defiance. These were the difficulties which from the owners and the managers of existed even in this country. In England mines; and he would remind the House the incumbrancer who was desirous of obthat by his Bill of last year, if life was taining payment of a mortgage could only lost by negligence, the surviving friends of du so by filing a bill to foreclose the mortthe party would have had a remedy. There gage, but he had no power to compel the could be no doubt that if that Bill had mortgagor to direct a sale of the estate or passed, the sums awarded in damages to pay the money, In Ireland the incumwould have made the parties more careful. brancer wss enabled, on going before a

court of equity, to obtain a decree for the INCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) sale of the estate; but the mortgagor could BILL.

not do so. Their Lordships might be The LORD CIIANCELLOR moved the aware that the expenses of proceedings in Second Reading of this Bill. The noble the Court of Chancery in Ireland were very and learned Lord, who was imperfectly heavy; and the expenses incident to proheard, said he anticipated that this mea- ceedings with regard to estates bore no sure, if carried out, would have the effect sort of relative proportion to their value. of relieving to a considerable degree many Where the estate was large and of conlandlords in Ireland. He had heard from siderable value, the expenses were relaall quarters that it frequently happened tively small; but where the estate was that landed property in Ireland was incum- small, those expenses bore ruinously heavy bered to its full value and to the entire upon it. He was very anxious to proamount of the rent. The person who had vide some plan by which the expenses in such a property was nominally in posses- Chancery with regard to proceedings in sion of a considerable estate; but he de- cases of incumbered estates should be rived no benefit from it, and he was un- lessened; and it was therefore proposed by able to perform the duties that were ex- the Bill before their Lordships to do away pected from him as a landlord. The mort- with all the preliminary machinery of filing gagee or incumbrancer had no interest in bills and answers, and all the other forms the land either, as it was quite immaterial that had to be gone through at present, to him how it was managed provided he and to permit the litigating parties to apgot the interest of his mortgage. He had ply at once to the Lord Chancellor, stating no motive for interesting himself in the the fact that the estate was incumbered, welfare of the property, while the real and praying that it be referred to the proprietor was left in charge of the man- Master in Chancery, that he might inquire agement of the estate without deriving into the whole circumstances, and arrange any income from it. This was undoubt- to bring the property to a sale. It was edly a great evil to the individuals, but it proposed that any incumbrancer might was also a great national evil. The diffi- apply; but as there was danger lest, in culty was, however, not only great, but cases where the owner of a settled estate the way out of it was extremely hard. was no more than the nominal owner-the Unless the party who had the first incum- estate being incumbered beyond its value, brance on the estate, and in whose posses- and he being therefore only ostensibly the sion the title-deeds remained, consented to owner, without having any real interest in give them up for the purpose, it was im- the property, he might join with some one of the incumbrancers who might have a from performing the duties of landlords; mortgage for a small amount-it should be and he feared the effect of the clause would referred to the master to examine and see be to obstruct the setting of it free. whether the estate was worth more than LORD ASHBURTON made some obthe incumbrances. He would propose that servations on the measure which were inwhen it was proved to a Master in Chancery audible in the gallery. that the estate was worth more than the LORD MONTEAGLE said, that it was incumbrance, then the estate should be a matter of every-day occurrence in Iresold, and the money paid into court, and, land to find cases in Chancery handed in the mean time, all litigation should take down year after year, and from generation place with reference to the money, and not to generation, until the whole value of the to the estate. The object of the Bill was estate which formed the subject of litigato promote the speedy sale of estates, and tion was swallowed up. He himself (Lord to provide that, pending all proceedings, Monteagle) lived in a part of the counthe lands could be let and the tenants at try surrounded by estates in the conditended to properly.

tion of being, to use a phrase perfectly The MARQUESS of WESTMEATH well understood in Ireland, “under the thanked the noble and learned Lord for courts;" and they were mere dens of pauhaving introduced such a measure; but he perism, there not being one single indicould not help thinking that when the no- vidual connected with them who could be ble Lord should come to consider it further pointed out as standing in the position of in Committee, he would find some means owner, or whose business it was to look by which the expenses might be still fur- after the tenants. The immediate effect, ther considerably diminished. He thought, he thought, of the Bill would be, that the also, that when a case should come before quantity of land which would be brought a Master in Chancery, the mode of re- into the market would diminish the value ceiving vita voce evidence in open court of land for a time. The provision for efmight be adopted, instead of the present fecting sale brought him to the consideradoubtful as well as expensive and tedious tion of a most important matter. He system of receiving testimony by interro- trusted, most sincerely, that, under the gatory. He thought that the Bill would working of the Bill, estates would be sold be of considerable benefit to Ireland. in smaller parcels than had generally been

The EARL of WICKLOW thought that the case in Ireland hitherto. He feared nothing could be more likely to prove that some of the evils dreaded by the noble eventually beneficial to Ireland than the Lord who had just spoken (Lord Ashburton) measure proposed; and he could not help might occur, unless great care were taken. saying, that he was surprised at finding no He meant by the purchasing of estates such recommeudation in the report of the with borrowed money. That had been one Commission at the head of which had been of the causes of selling land in Ireland in the Earl of Devon; for it appeared to him, large wasses; and it was, in fact, only exfrom much of the reasoning and of the changing one incumbered estate for anevidence in that report, that some such other. But if anything could raise the measure was pointed out as being abso-condition of Ireland more than another, it lutely necessary. He begged, however, to would be the raising a class of smaller call attention to the 7th Clause of the Bill, proprietors. There was no one who knew the operation of which would be, as it ap- anything about the condition of Ireland peared to him, directly against the prin- who did not grieve to think of its condition ciple of the measure, and calculated to from the absence of a middle class of proprevent the useful working of it. That prietors; one that should stand between clause provided that where only one in the larger class and the lower, or cottiers. cumbrancer upon any estate should object Such a middle class formed the strength of or refuse his consent, the court should not, a country. He did not know whether the without the consent of that incumbrancer, Bill before them would effect any change permit the sale of the land. Now, for the or improvement in the system of registravery reasons given by the noble and learned tion; but a greater good could not be done Lord himself, persons holding mortgages to the landed proprietors than by the im. upon an estate might not be willing to as- provement of the system of registry. sist the sale. The great object of the Through the difficulties that had been cast measure ought to be, to free property now around it, the last state of the landed proincumbered so far as to prevent the owners prietors of Ireland had been made, under

the Registration Act, worse than the first. had refused to take arbitrations in private But he thought, in any case, that the Bill suits; he believed, however, that there were before them would be of the very greatest Judges who in some cases, in reference to benefit to the country.

peculiar circumstances, and upon the exThe LORD CHANCELLOR explained treme urgency of the parties, had condethe effect and object of the 7th Clause. scended to take arbitrations, and had deBill read a second time.

cided certain points in difference as refeHouse adjourned.

recs; but he was not aware of any case in

which it had interfered with the official disHOUSE OF COMMONS,

charge of any duty. If the hon. and learn

ed Member alluded to a recent case which Tuesday, April 27, 1847. had caused some discussion, he could say Minutes.] PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. W. Baillie that the Judge who took the arbitration did

and Mr. E. Ellice, from several places, against the Mar- so at the most urgent entreaty of both parriage (Scotland) Bill.-By Mr. Hume, from Leeds, for

ties. The reference was decided at a time Inquiry respecting the Rajah of Sattara.---By Sir De L. Evans, from London and Westminster, for Alteration of when the Judge had no official business nor the Law relating to Coffee House Keepers, &c.-- By Mr. duty to perform, and no fee or other remu. and Thomas Clutton Salt, of Birmingham, and from neration had been accepted. The hon. and Members of the Stock Exchange of Edinburgh, fur Con- learned Gentleman had been pleased to ask sideration respecting the Currency. - By several hon, his opinion whether he approved of such a Plan of Education. ---By Sir T. D. Acland and other hon. practice? Perhaps, having stated that there Members, from several places, in favour of the proposed were some Judges who had on particular Plan of Education.-By Mr. Frewen, from William occasions taken arbitrations, it would be Holmes, of Arundel, Sussex, for Alteration of the Law of Entailed Estates. —By Mr. J. Tollemache, from Wallasey, hardly fair for him to express an opinion. in favour of the Health of Towns Bill.—By Mr. Hastie, At the same time he had no hesitation in from Paisley, for an Efficient Poor Law (Ireland). -By stating that he thought those Judges who against the Introduction of a certain Clause into the Poor had refused to take arbitrations, under any Relief (Ireland) Bill.—By Mr. P. Bennet, from Hadleigh, circumstances or on any consideration, had for Repeal or Alteration of the Poor Removal Act. By adopted the better course, Mr. G. Philips, from Poole, in favour of the Ports, Har. bours, &c. (1846) Bill.—By Mr. Beckett, from Leeds, for

MR. WATSON wished to know whether the Suppression of Promiscuous Intercourse. - By Mr. fees had been taken by the Judges on any E. Ellice, from the East of Fife Railway Company, against

occasion ? the Railways Bill. -- By Mr. W. Baillie and Mr. E. Ellice, from several places, against the Registering of Births, &c.

The LORD ADVOCATE thought that (Scotland) Bill.-- By Lord Norreys, from Guardians of the hon. and learned Member pressed him the Poor of the Headington Union, for Alteration of the Law of Settlement.-By Mr. Bankcs, from Holwell, for

a little too hard; but he was not aware that Inquiry respecting the Sherbourne Union.-From Farmers in any case fees had been given to the and Graziers, against the Removal of Smithfield Market. Judges. Did the hon. and learned Member -By Mr. Duncan, from Dundee, for Alteration of the Law respecting the Transference of Heritable Property

mean to make any charge? (Scotland).

MR. WATSON: None at all.

The LORD ADVOCATE: I am not JUDGES TAKING FEES (SCOTLAND). aware that fees were ever taken.

MR. WATSON put a question to the Lord Advocate, of which he had given him

LORD DALHOUSIE'S ACT. notice. It related to the Scotch Judges. MR. NEWDEGATE, seeing the head of It had been stated that the Scotch Judges, the Railway Commissioners in his place, the Lords of Session, engaged in the arbi- wished to put a question to him respecting tration of private suits, and received fees what was commonly called Lord Dalhousie's from the parties for so doing. He begged Act, concerning joint-stock companies, and to know if this were the practice, and, if it consequently railway companies. He was were, whether the Lord Advocate approved | aware that a similar question to that he of it?

proposed to put had been already asked The LORD ADVOCATE had to state by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, that he was not aware of the prevalence of and that the answer had been that some any such practice as that the Scotch Judges legal provisions would be introduced to undertook the arbitration of private suits, amend' Lord Dalhousie's Act. The conseand received fees for their services.

He
quence

of the answer had been, that nuthought he could state distinctly that the merous petitions from persons concerned Scotch Judges were not in the habit of in railway companies which had failed in doing so. He knew many Scotch Judges carrying out their objects had been delayed, who on every occasion and unconditionally In those petitions they set forth, that owing

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