I am fairly be raised, if hon. Gentlemen choose. | though the usual time for making any anAll that I think it necessary for me to say on nouncement on the subject has not arrived, the present occasion is, that this is a course with a view to calm the anxiety which which Her Majesty's Government are not prevails, I think it right to state to-night, prepared to adopt. Now, Sir, having made that I shall, on the proper day, the 18th of this declaration, I think it is only right I May, give the usual notice for the exchange should state, that consistently with the of Exchequer-bills, subject to the usual maintenance of that law, we consider it conditions. I think it, however, indispenmost desirable that every facility should be sable to raise the interest on Exchequergiven which can be legitimately and legally bills, now far below the current rate given to the public, and with that view given on other securities with which that no demand on the part of the Govern- they compete; and, from the day in June ment should be made which should possibly on which the exchange takes place, the interfere with the accommodation to be interest on all Exchequer-bills-whether given on good private securities to the ex- exchangeable then or in March-will be at tent the Bank may think itself justified in the rate of 3d. per diem. It is well giving. It is just a week since I stated known that it has been usual for the holdthat I believed at that time the necessity ers of Exchequer-bills to borrow money on for the stringent measures adopted by the depositing their bills; but considerable diffiBank had ceased. I certainly was misun- culty prevailed as to this mode of raising derstood when I was represented to have money during the late pressure. stated that the danger was over, for most un- happy, however, to state that the Bank has, undoubtedly I never used any expression within the last few days, found itself in a that could bear that interpretation. I said, condition to make advances of money on not as a matter of opinion, but of fact, that Exchequer-bills. It was made known to the the necessity for stringent measures had brokers that the Bank was prepared to do ceased. In point of fact, on the two pre- so, and it has had no difficulty in complying vious days the Bank had relaxed the strin- with the whole demand made upon it to-day gency of its course; and it has, from that to the extent of 170,000l. The Bank time forward, been enabled from its im- is prepared to make these advances, not proved condition to continue giving facili- for any lengthened period, for that proties to the country within reasonable and bably might let loose the rein indismoderate bounds. The last return shows creetly; but it has advanced money on a very much improved condition. Since Exchequer-bills for short periods, and that last Saturday the Bank has received accommodation to the public the Bank is 400,0007. in gold and silver bullion, and in a condition to continue. With regard the circulation of the country has been to the Exchequer, it certainly is exceedincreased, nearly that amount of notes ingly desirable that it should not be under having been issued in exchange for gold the necessity of calling on the Bank to and silver. Of course, I cannot interfere with make large advances, unless indispensably the discretion which the Bank may think necessary, which I hope it will not be, for proper to exercise; but, so far as Govern- the next quarter. That must, however, ment securities are concerned, it is desir- depend on the moneys paid into the Excheable to place them in a proper condition, quer. Although the payments into the Exthat they may be as available as they chequer have, during the last fortnight, parusually are for the purposes of those who taken of the general monetary depression, hold them, and also to put the Exchequer I am happy to say that my right hon. Friend in such a condition as to enable us to the the Chairman of the Board of Customs inutmost of our power to dispense with that forms me that for the last few days the extent of aid and assistance which, on all payments have resumed their usual course. former occasions of quarter day, with a From other sources I learn that money single exception, has been afforded to the matters in the city of London are much Government by the Bank. Certainly, it easier, and that the extremity of the presdoes appear that the description of Go- sure has passed off. The mode in which vernment securities which at the present I propose to put the Exchequer in funds is moment labour under the greatest depres- by offering an inducement to those who sion are Exchequer-bills; and considerable have contributed to the loan to pay up anxiety exists as to the course Government their instalments. I have reason to bewill take as to that description of securi-lieve that, in all probability, many of those I think it therefore desirable, al- who are contributors to the loan will be ties. disposed, on the allowance of discount, to pay up the whole or a portion of the instalments between this and the 20th day of July. What I propose, therefore, to do is, on Monday next to move that the House do resolve into a Committee, when I shall submit a resolution to authorize, by Act of Parliament, an advance of interest, by way of discount for prompt payments on the loan. Any person who shall pay up previously to Friday, the 18th of June, any portion of the instalments due subsequently to the day of payment shall receive discount at a given rate, calculated from the day on which the payment is made, up to the day on which the instalment is duethat is to say, if anybody pays up early in May the June instalments, he will receive a months' interest; if he pays the July instalment on the same day, he will receive two months' interest; if the August instalment, three months' interest; and so on. I have reason to hope that a considerable sum of money will be paid up in this way. Of course, on the amount so paid will depend the condition of the Exchequer; but, from what I hear, I have great hopes that the balances in the Exchequer will enable us next quarter to dispense with the usual assistance from the Bank. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by giving formal notice of the course, as stated above, to be taken on Monday next. PUNISHMENT OF VAGRANTS (IRELAND) BILL. Order of the Day for Committee on Punishment of Vagrants, &c., (Ireland) Bill read. On the question that the Speaker do now leave the chair, MR. P. SCROPE said, he wished to ask the noble Lord whether he was prepared to assure the House that he would do all in his power to guarantee the passing of a measure which would insure relief to the poor of Ireland in the extremity of destitution? He believed, that if the Irish Poor Law Bill were to be cut down so as to be merely a temporary measure, to continue in operation for one, two, or three years, it would be perfectly worthless. He was convinced, that if the Bill was to be merely of a temporary character, neither the poor on the one hand, nor the rich on the other, would exert themselves as they would do if it were a permanent measure. In his opinion, the time had come when it was necessary that this principle should be adopted permanently-that the poor should be supported in the districts in which they The lived, and in which their labour had been employed; and he believed the people of England were determined that this principle should be applied to Ireland. people of this country were obliged to maintain their own poor; and they considered that it was not justifiable that a state of things should be continued, which would enable the owners of property in Ireland to refuse to discharge their duties towards their own poor, and, directly or indirectly, by the force of starvation, or the refusal of relief, to send them in hordes to this country, either to obtain that relief which they so much needed, or to come into competition with our own industrious population. He believed the English people and the Government were alike determined that this principle should be enforced-that the property of Ireland should maintain the poor of Ireland. He wished, therefore, to ask the noble Lord, whether he meant to press this Bill to-night? And if that was the noble Lord's intention, whether he could assure the House that he would take every measure in the power of the Government to secure the application of some permanent system of relief to Ireland, which should require the property of that country to maintain the poor? LORD J. RUSSELL: My hon. Friend requires some explanation of my opinion with regard to this Bill. In answer to his question, I beg to remind him, in the first place, that I have always declared that, as the former Poor Law Act only applied to a certain portion of the destitute, and there were numbers who were not relieved under that Act; it was not just to deprive those who were not relieved, of the privilege of begging, and of getting what assistance they could obtain. I am still of the same opinion; and therefore I certainly should not attempt to ask the House to consent to the passing of this Bill, unless I believed there was a general Bill about to have the force of law which would give to all the destitute to all persons in danger of starving, the means of obtaining their support from rates to be levied by law. I will say further, that if the Poor Law which is to give such relief is to be limited in duration, I think this Bill, which is of a penal character, should be limited in the same way. But, while I say this, I do not think the limitation of the duration of the Poor Law Bill would be a good reason for declining to enter into the details of this measure. It is quite obvious, that if the two Houses of Parliament were to show so much jealousy of each other, that the one were to say, "We will not pass the Vagrancy Bill unless a Poor Law Bill, satisfactory to us, has passed the other House,' and the other branch of the Legislature were to say, "We will not consider the Poor Law Bill unless a Vagrancy Bill accompanies it," there would be great danger that, between the two, no progress in legislation would be made. I am therefore disposed to go into Committee on this Bill. Before it has finally passed this House, we shall probably be aware in what state the measure recently sent to the other House will be returned to us. At present, my hon. Friend does not seem to be aware whether the alterations made in that Bill, limiting its duration, apply to the whole Bill or only to certain clauses; and if so, to what clauses. I think, therefore, we cannot take into consideration what is passing in Committee in the other House of Parliament; and I hope that this House will go into Committee on this Bill, and consider its details, as if the measure which has been referred to, and which has passed through this House, were to be agreed to by the other House of Parliament. In the future stages of this measure we may think fit to limit its duration; or, if the measure to which I have alluded should not pass, we can refuse our consent to the passing of this Bill. I must say, with regard to the necessity of the Poor Law for Ireland, I am more and more convinced, both by the accounts I hear from day to day, and by the statements of persons for whose opinions I entertain great respect, that the Bill we have passed through this House is absolutely necessary for Ireland. I heard only this day (I will not mention names, for it may be one of those exaggerated representations we sometimes hear, though it seems to me to be a well-authenticated case) of a poor family, the head of which had been one of the 40s. freeholders formerly used as the serfs and slaves of great political landlords in Ireland, but who had now become useless, having accepted a small sum to quit their wretched holding, and being then left to starve. The persons employed in the constabulary found the woman and children dead; and they ascertained that relief had been refused by those upon whose land they had lived for so many years, and to whom the political service of the father had been useful. ["Name!"] I certainly shall not name; but I really think no one can be blind to the circumstances which are passing around us. I see a complaint in the newspapers, in reference to the statement made by my right hon. Friend, that in consequence of the relief works having been stopped in a certain district of Ireland, within a few days, a great number of persons have perished. Why, Sir, it does appear to me, that though persons possessing property in Ireland may be unable to sustain the destitute during a whole year, yet that during the interval between the cessation of the public works and the bringing into operation of an Act recently passed, the persons of property residing in the neighbourhoods in which there are numbers of destitute persons, and not the Government, are bound to maintain these poor people. I may say further, that two persons who formerly expressed very strong opinions against out-door relief in Ireland, and to whose opinions great value is attached-Mr. Nicholls, one of the present Poor Law Commissioners, and Mr. Gulson, an assistant poor-law commissioner— have expressed in writing their conviction that, in the present state of things in Ireland, out-door relief to the able-bodied is absolutely necessary. These statements confirm my own opinion with regard to the necessity of affording such relief. MR. S. CRAWFORD considered that the House ought not to proceed with the Bill now before them until they knew what was to be the fate of the Bill to which the noble Lord had alluded in another place. matter MR. F. FRENCH did not think any alteration in the Irish Poor Relief Bill which merely had the effect of rendering the measure temporary could be a of any great consequence, when it was considered that the object of that Bill was to prevent the people from starving. MR. SHAW said, it was not very regular to discuss in that House the different stages of a measure that was in progress in the other House of Parliament; he would therefore, only say on that point, that he had from the first maintained that the legislation to meet the present calamitous emergency in Ireland should be of a temporary rather than of a permanent character. As regarded the Vagrancy Act, the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) might recollect that, when the vagrancy clauses were introduced originally in the Irish Poor Law Bill in 1838, he (Mr. Shaw) objected to their passing, because the Poor Law Bill conferred no right to relief; and, of course, he should be of the same opinion now, the right to relief was not provided by the if moment to enable them to afford employment to the poor, and to aid subscriptions for relieving the destitute. He was acquainted with some gentlemen in his own district who, at great inconvenience and expense, had taken this course. With respect to the question put by the hon. Member for Stroud to the noble Lord at the head of the Government, he believed that question to be very irregular; and he thought it was inconvenient to discuss in that House what was proceeding in the other, or to hold out anything like intimidation to any other body. He denied that the recent vote in the other House, which had been alluded to, was a complete upsetting of and a refusal of relief to the Irish poor. Had any hon. Member except the hon. Member for Stroud ever described the Irish Poor Relief Bill as anything but a great experiment, and a measure of uncertainty? It was, therefore, in accordance with common sense to make such a measure temporary, in order that they might have an opportunity of seeing how it worked. other Bill; at the same time, he agreed | fact was, that many of the landlords of with the noble Lord that it would be the Ireland were borrowing money at this very more correct and dignified course for the House to proceed through Committee with that Bill, without reference to what was passing in another place. He had risen principally to express his regret that the noble Lord had thought it right to allude to the case he had mentioned of apparent neglect of duty on the part of an Irish landlord, without furnishing the name or any particulars, which might lead to an explanation. If the information the noble Lord had received was correct, he should deprecate such conduct as much as the noble Lord could; but experience had taught him to be very cautious in crediting such statements, until an opportunity of denial or explanation was afforded to the party accused; and his great objection to a charge of that kind being made without name or circumstance, and particularly under the high authority of the noble Lord, was, that it would be applied generally to a class which had already been indiscriminately and cruelly maligned-he meant the Irish landlords. He would repeat what he had over and over again said in that House, that, as a body, they were MR. ROSS was afraid that the result of doing all that men could do to discharge making the Irish Poor Relief Bill temporary their duty, under difficulties of overwhelm- would be, that a general combination would ing magnitude. They were, as compared be entered into by those who disliked it, to English landlords, few, and scattered, and poor-the very distress which increased the demands upon them rendering them the less able to meet the demands. Under the present Temporary Relief Act, they were, in some electoral districts in Ireland, 40,000 persons claiming out-door relief, and in others a rate of 10s. in the pound voted for three months only. Let him, then, ask those who heaped charge upon charge on the Irish landlords, what men, circumstanced as they were, could do effectually to meet such a case as that? SIR H. W. BARRON thought the House would agree with him that it was most unwise, ungenerous, and unjust, to make accusations, without notice, against persons who were absent; and, above all, he thought it was most unjust to make an anonymous accusation of neglect of duty against a body in Ireland who, under the most adverse circumstances, were struggling to do all in their power to relieve the poverty and alleviate the distress of those by whom they were surrounded. This was done, too, at a time when many of the members of that body were not receiving one-tenth of the rents due to them by law. The with the view of preventing the Bill from working well; and then the opponents of the measure would contend, in this case, that such a measure was not capable of producing good effects in Ireland. He, for one, deeply lamented what had passed elsewhere, converting into a temporary measure that which was originally intended to be permanent; for he feared that at a future period they would have all the work to do over again, and, in the mean time, Ireland would be placed in very unhappy and disastrous circumstances. MR. ESCOTT said, that the noble Lord at the head of the Government had that night made an important statement, to the effect that he would abide by his former speech, taking care that in the Bill introduced by the Government substantial means should be provided for the relief of the poor in Ireland, and for the purpose of preventing them being a charge on the people of this country. In addition to the Irish Vagrancy Bill, which they were now about to discuss, he was afraid that the noble Lord at the head of the Government would also have to introduce a Lunacy Bill, in order to repress the wild ardour of those who, in House in Committee. On Clause 2, providing that a person shall be liable to imprisonment and hard their opposition to the Irish Poor Relief clause would be found exceedingly difficult, Bill, seemed to be setting all common if not dangerous, in operation. In the sense at defiance. case of those vagrants who feigned lameness and blindness, he thought the enactment would meet with general approval and support; but the reverse would be the case as regarded those persons who had known better times, and who were obliged to solicit alms from no fault of their own. He thought a discretionary power should be given to the Poor Law Commissioners to put the enactment in force in those districts where out-door relief was granted. labour —“who shall desert or leave his wife, or any child whom he may be liable to maintain, so that such wife or child shall become destitute and be relieved in or out of the workhouse," MR. GREGORY did not think that the clause would be put in force in the case of those who from misfortune were obliged to solicit alms from those who sympathized with them. The enactment was levelled at sturdy beggars. MR. P. SCROPE moved a proviso to limit this clause, by requiring that it should be first proved to the committing justice that such person had the power of earning a maintenance at home, or had been offered a maintenance in the union. If a man went to a distance in search of work, his family must go into the workhouse until he either returned or sent COLONEL RAWDON proposed the addimoney to them, begging being now pro- tion of words intending to protect those hibited; but the man ought not to be pun-persons who were travelling in search of ished for thus doing what he was really work, or to a seaport for the purpose of obliged to do. emigrating, and who might avail themMR. ESCOTT thought it would be ad- selves of the hospitable feelings of their visable for the Government to make in-countrymen on the way. quiry into the provisions of the laws already on the Statute-book, so that they might be repealed, and the law of vagrancy made uniform. He had been told that there were laws already in existence which imposed transportation for seven years for the offence of vagrancy; and he had been informed also, that that most offensive law had in certain instances been put in force. MR. SHAW said, it was true that there was such an Act; but it was almost obsolete for any purpose, and had never been put in force or held applicable against a mere ordinary beggar. MR. S. CRAWFORD said, it was true that the Act in question did not apply to beggars; but he had known it to be applied to prostitutes. He thought the Act ought to be repealed. SIR G. GREY stated, that the object of the clause was to guard, amongst other things, against the wife entering into collusion with the husband, by which she and her children might become burdensome while the husband was in a position to support them. MR. P. SCROPE was willing to leave his suggestion to the consideration of Her Majesty's Government. Clause agreed to. On Clause 3, imposing imprisonment for begging, MR. M. O'FERRALL thought that this SIR G. GREY said, that the clause was framed on the model of that incorporated in the English Act; and under that Act no instance had ever been known where persons travelling, for instance, to the hay harvest, had been put in prison on their arrival in England. He really thought the gallant Colonel entertained a harsher opinion of Irish magistrates than their conduct justified. With regard to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Kildare, the effect of it would be to induce vagrants to flock into the districts which adjoined the one in which the enactment was in force. MR. M. O'FERRALL thought the difficulty would be got over by making the clause operative within a certain distance of the districts where out-door relief was granted. MR. SHAW thought, that if they were to pass the law at all, they must declare the act of begging to be an offence; but he did not share the apprehensions of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. M. O'Ferrall) that there would be any attempt to enforce its operation with extreme rigour. It could never be intended to make charity a crime, or to prevent any extent of kindness by the poor to their friends and neighbours. You could not legislate for each particular case. A discretion must be vested somewhere; and he did not fear that the magistrates in Ireland would exercise it otherwise than humanely. |