thought otherwife; but they all continued filent. The mixt fy ftem of war and conciliation was reprefented as highly improper. The measure adopted, whether of peace or war, fhould be clear, fimple, and decided, not involved in doubt, perplexity, and darkness. If war was refolved, and it was determined to compel America to fubmiffion, let the means of coercion be fuch, as will, to a moral certainty, infure fuccefs. The force employed must be able to command terms, or it does nothing. If, on the contrary, peace is really wished for, and terms of conciliation are to be propofed, your propofitions ought to be fo clear as to be obvious to every common understanding, and fo fimple as to baffle the powers of chicanery.

On the other fide it was faid,, that the force propofed, when its operations were directed to specific fervices, and fupported by a formidable fleet, would be fully fufficient for the purpose, and fuch as all America could not withfland; nor was it probable, that they would enter into fo arduous a conteft, when terms were held out to them at the very inftant, which would fully preferve their rights. The idea of fimple war, or fimple conceffion, was ftrongly controverted. It was faid, that a conqueft over our own fubjects, was neither fought nor defired. That it was our intereft, as it was our wish, to reclaim, not to destroy or enflave. That in the prefent ftate. of things in America, this defirable object could only be obtained by fuch an armament as would command refpect, ftrike an awe into the factious, and enforce a fub

miffion to the conciliatory terms which we propofed, if coercion became abfolutely neceffary. And that either to withdraw the force we already had there, or to leave it expofed to the infults and danger of a greater on the fide of the rebels, would not only be in the highest degree difgraceful to ourfelves, but would, in its confequences, be equally ruinous to both countries.

A gentleman in office, but who has for feveral years been confidered as poffeffing much more real than oftenfible power, departed totally from these temperate ideas of conduct which the minifter profeffed, and on which he valued himself. He was of opinion, that all attempts of conciliation would be fruitless: obferved, that at any rate, a number of terms were to be made, and fecurities given, before conciliation could be obtained. That terms of force were the meafures chalked out by his Majefty in the fpeech; attended, however, with conditions of conciliation, and gracious offers of forgiveness and protection. On this foundation, the prefent vote on the eftimates was proposed; but if premature explanations were defired: if the gentlemen, who had pledged themfelves to fupport thofe meafures, had altered their minds, or had withdrawn their confidence from the King's fervants, he saw no poffible way to remedy matters but by a change of adminiftration. He, however, animadverted feverely on the cowardice of declining the conteft, almoft in the very outfet, after their having gone fuch lengths in bringing matters to that crifis.

This being confidered as the language

means of interrupting their proceedings

As the Lords in adminiftration were well aware, that the views of the noble mover and his friends, went farther than the authenticity of the petition, and extended to the laying before the houfe all the information, with refpect to America, which they could draw from a perfon fo thoroughly master of the fubject as Mr. Penn, and not being at all difpofed that such matters fhould now be brought forward, they used every means to prevent or defeat the examination. They objected to the motion on the fubject of order; on its informality; on its want of precedent; being contrary to their established mode of proceeding; that the bringing in of extraneous matter by furprize, and breaking in upon their moft ferious and important deliberations, by fuddenly calling their attention off to the examination of witneffes, and to new fubjects of difcuffion, would be destructive of that order and gravity which had always diftinguifhed their proceedings.

They also contended, that this meafure would establish a most pernicious precedent, as it would neceffarily follow, that every petition,, from whatever quarter of the globe, must be accompanied by the evidence to establish its authenticity. They obferved, that improper queftions might be asked, and fuch anfwers drawn from Mr. Penn, as might tend to prejudice him with refpect to his private fortune and affairs in America; that his evidence might have the fame effect with refpect to others, who were alfo friends to government in America, and who by a pubiic expo

fure of their private conduct in its favour, would be liable to perfonal danger, and ruin to their fortunes. They alfo infifted, that as the evidence, let it turn out as it may, would be only ex parte, the houfe could not found any refolution upon it; nor could it be prefumed, that the fingle teftimony of an individual, however refpectable the character may be, could at all influence their conduct or opinion, in queftions of fuch great national and political import. To prevent, however, every pretence for the enquiry, they offered to admit the authenticity of the petition without any proof.

On the other fide, they faid, that the objections as to order were fo trifling, as to be unworthy of their time and attention; that the propofed examination was, however, fully fupportable upon that ground, as well as in point of precedent. They offered to tie themfelves down as to the questions to be put, and that the Lords, who oppofed the measure, fhould object to any which they did not approve. And they lamented, in the most pathetic terms, the dif pofition which they faw in the houfe, to fhut out every fpecies of information relative to America, to continue to the laft in darkness, and to rufh headlong themfelves, and plunge the nation along with them, into inevitable ruin and deftruction. That this was the more furprizing, and the more lamenta able, as the fatal confequences which had already proceeded from a fimilar conduct, were fo fenfibly felt at this very inftant, as to convulfe the empire through all its parts.

The motion being rejected upon

a divifion, by a majority of 56 to to 22, the noble mover, who is diftinguished for his perfeverance, made another, That Mr. Penn fhould be examined at the bar on the next day. Though the examination of a witnefs in this form, unconnected with any other matter, could not be refufed, yet fo difagreeable was every enquiry of this nature, that a further debate arofe upon it; but it was at length reluctantly agreed to, that he

fhould be examined on the 10th. Several curious particu10th. lars relative to much controverted fubjects, came out upon the examination of this gentleman. He was perfonally acquainted with almost all the members of the Congrefs, had been Governor of the colony, and refided in the city, in which they affembled and held their deliberations, and

had every opportunity, from of fice, family connection, locality of property, and an extenfive acquaintance, to obtain the fulleft information of the state of affairs in America, as well as of the temper and difpofition of the people. It was alfo evident, that his difcernment was equal to the forming a juft estimate of things; and there could fcarcely be a fufpicion of partiality, in favour of any meafure which could tend to American independency, as the great fortune of his family, if not wholly loft, must be much impaired by fuch an event, and their great powers and prerogatives certainly fubverted.

Among the remarkable parts of his teftimony, (which we must recollect, confifted only of anfwers to fuch specific questions as were propofed) was an abfolute negative

to the fuppofition or charge, that any defigns of independency had been formed by the Congrefs. He declared, that the members compofing that body had been fairly elected; that they were men of character, capable of conveying the fenfe of America; and that they had actually conveyed the fenfe of their conftituents. That the different provinces would be governed by their decifions in all events. That the war was levied and carried on by the colonists, merely in defence of what they thought their liberties. That the fpirit of refiftance was general, and they believed themfelves able to defend their liberties against the arms of Great Britain.

That the colony of Penfylvania contained about 60,000 men able to carry arms. That of these, 20,000 had voluntarily enrolled themselves to ferve without pay, and were armed and embodied before the Governor's departure. Being queftioned as to the nature of that volunteer force, he faid, that it included the men of beft fortune and character in the province, and that it was generally compofed of men who were poffeffed of property, either landed or otherwife. That an additional body of 4,500 minute men had fince been raised in the province, who were to be paid when called out on fervice. That they had the means and materials of cafting iron cannon in great plenty. That they caft brafs cannon in Philadelphia. And that they made fmall arms in great abundance and perfection.

That the colonies had been diffatisfied with the reception of their former petitions; but that they

had