Mr. FARNSWORTH. I desire to say that, so far as the Departments generally are concerned, I concur in what the gentleman from Tennessee [Mr. MAYNARD] has just said. Probably numerically there is a larger force in the different Departments, with the exception of the Post Office Department, than is necessary. While the business of the other Departments has diminished since the close of the war the business of the Post Office Department has been largely increased, as every gentleman must know, by the reopening of mail service in the insurgent States, the appointment of additional postmasters, the keeping of accounts with their various offices, the establishment of new mail routes, &c. The force of clerks in that Department has not been increased in proportion to the increased labor thrown upon the Department, and is not at the present time sufficient for the performance of that labor. As regards the other Departments-the War, the Navy, the Treasury, the State Department, &c.-what the gentleman from Tennessee has said is undoubtedly true.

Mr. MAYNARD. I withdraw my amendment to the amendment.

The amendment of the Senate was nonconcurred in.

Seventy-second amendment:

Strike out in line four hundred and ninety, after the words "sixty-four clerks of class two," the words four of them transferred from Third Auditor's office."

The Committee on Appropriations recommend non-concurrence.

The amendment was non-concurred in.
Seventy-third amendment:

In line four hundred and ninety-one strike out "thirty" and insert seven;" so as to read, seven clerks of class one.'

The Committee on Appropriations recommend non-concurrence.

The amendment was non-concurred in.

Seventy-fourth amendment:

Strike out in lines four hundred and ninety-four and four hundred and ninety-five the words "including additional to two clerks of class three transferred to class four."

The Committee on Appropriations recommend non-concurrence.

The amendment was non-concurred in.
Seventy-fifth amendment:

Strike out in lines four hundred and ninety-five and four hundred and ninety-six the words $191,900" and insert in lieu thereof "$229,160;" so as to read **$229,160."

The Committee on Appropriations recommend non-concurrence.

The amendment was non-concurred in.

Seventy-sixth amendment:

In line fifty-four strike out "six" and insert "eight;" so as to make the paragraph read as follows:

For salaries and expenses of collectors, assessors, assistant assessors, revenue agents, inspectors, and superintendents of exports and drawbacks. together with the expense of carrying into effect the various provisions of the several acts providing internal revenue, excepting items otherwise estimated for, $8,000,000.

The Committee on Appropriations recommend non-concurrence.

The amendment was non-concurred in.
Seventy-seventh amendment:

In line five hundred and fifty-eight strike out one "and insert "two;" so that the paragraph will rend as follows:

For detecting and bringing to trial and punishment persons guilty of violating the internal revenue laws or conniving at the same, in cases where such expenses are not otherwise provided for by law, $200,000.

The Committee on Appropriations recommend non-concurrence.

The amendment was non-concurred in.
Seventy-eighth amendment:

In line five hundred and sixty-seven, strike out "ten" and insert "one hundred;" so that the paragraph will read as follows:

In the office of the Secretary of the Treasury and the several bureaus, including copying, labor, binding, sealing ships' registers, translating foreign languages, advertising, and extra clerk hire for preparing and collecting information to be laid before Congress, and for miscellaneous items, $100,000.

The Committee on Appropriations recommend non-concurrence.

The amendment was non-concurred in.
Seventy-ninth amendment:

After the word "dollars," in line five hundred and sixty-seven, add the following:

44

But the Special Commissioner of the Revenue shall, under the direction of the Secretary of the Treasury, act as superintendent of the division in the office of said Secretary, created by the thirteenth section of the act approved July 20, 1866, entitled An act to protect the revenue, and for other purposes," and called the Bureau of Statistics; and the Secretary of the Treasury may appoint one division clerk at the same salary as the head of division in the office of the Commissioner of Internal Revenue, who shall act as deputy to the said Special Commissioner of the Revenue in respect to said bureau, and exercise in his absence all power belonging to him as such superintendent, except the franking privilege, and the office of director of the Bureau of Statistics is hereby abolished.

The Committee on Appropriations recommend concurrence, with an amendment adding the words "after the 1st of January, 1869.' The amendment to the amendment was agreed to.

Mr. BLAINE. The committee agreed to report another amendment to the amendment of the Senate. It has been omitted by mistake. It was to add near the beginning of the amendment, after the words "but the Special Commissioner of the Revenue shall," the words "after the 1st of January, 1869." I move that amendment.

The amendment of Mr. BLAINE was agreed to. The Senate amendment, as amended, was concurred in.

For Commissioner of the General Land Office, recorder, chief clerk, three principal clerks of public lands, private land claims, and surveys, three clerks of class four, twenty-three clerks of class three, forty clerks of class two, forty clerks of class one, draughtsman, assistant draughtsman, two messengers, three assistant messengers, two packers, seven laborers. and eight watchmen employed in his office, in all, $178,200.

The Committee on Appropriations recommend concurrence.

The amendment was concurred in. Eighty-second and eighty-third amendments: Strike out twenty" and insert" forty:" and strike out thirty-four" and insert "fifty-eight;" so the clause will read as follows:

For compensation of additional clerks in the General Land Office under the act of March 3, 1855: For one principal clerk as director, one clerk of class three, four clerks of class two, forty clerks of class one, and two laborers, $58,640.

The Committee on Appropriations recommend non-concurrence.

The amendments were severally non-concurred in.

On the recommendation of the Committee on Appropriations the committee non-concurred in the following amendments from the eighty-fourth to the ninety-ninth, both inclusive:

Strike out "$2,500" and insert "$6,300;" so the paragraph will read:

Surveyors general and their clerks:

For compensation of the surveyor general of Minnesota, $2,000, and the clerks in his office, $6,300. Strike out $4,000" and insert "$6,300;" so it will read:

For surveyor general of Kansas, $2,000, and the clerks in his office, $6,300.

Strike out "$4,500" and insert "$11,000;" so it will read:

For surveyor general of California and Arizona, $3,000, and for clerks in his office, $11,000.

Insert "and two," and "and seventy-two cents:" so it will then read as follows:

For surveyor general of Nevada, $2,502 72, and the clerks in his office, $1,000.

Strike out $1,000" and insert "$6,300;" so it will then read as follows:

For surveyor general of Nebraska and Iowa, $2,000, and the clerks in his office, $6,300.

Strike out "three" and insert "four;" so it will read:

For surveyor general of Montana, $3,000, and for the clerks in his office, $4,000.

One hundredth amendment:

Insert the following:

For services of the clerk of the district court of the northern district of Mississippi, as keeper of the records and files of the land office at Pontotoc, Mississippi, from June 4, 1866, to June 4, 1868, $500; and it is hereby made the duty of said clerk, on the passage of this act, to transfer the records and files aforesaid to the register of the land office at Jackson, Mississippi; and the nineteenth section of the act of March 3, 1853, entitled "An act making appropriations for the civil and diplomatic expenses of the Government for the year ending the 30th of June, 1854," be, and the same is hereby, repealed.

The Committee on appropriations recommend concurrence.

The amendment was concurred in.

By unanimous consent the amendments one hundred and one to one hundred and fortythree, inclusive, were considered in gross, the Committee on Appropriations recommending

non-concurrence.

One hundred and first amendment:

Strike out "four" and insert "seven:" so as to read, seven clerks of class four:" also, strike out *$7,200" and insert "*$12,600,"

One hundred and second amendment :
Insert:

For four clerks of class three, $6,400.

One hundred and third amendment:

Strike out "six" and insert "eight;" so as to read: "Eight clerks of class one."

One hundred and fourth amendment:

Strike out "$7,200" and insert "$9,600.”

One hundred and fifth amendment:

Strike out "one" and insert "three;" so as to read:

Three clerks of class four.

One hundred and sixth amendment:

Strike out "$1,800" and insert "$5,400."
One hundred and seventh amendment:
Strike out "one" and insert" nine;" so as to read:
Nine clerks of class three.

One hundred and eighth amendment:
Strike out "$1,600" and insert "$14,400."
One hundred and ninth amendment:
Strike out "twenty-six" and insert "forty;" so as
to read:

Forty clerks of class one.

One hundred and tenth amendment: Strike out "$31,200" and insert "$48,000." One hundred and eleventh and one hundred and twelfth amendments:

Strike out"four" and insert "nineteen;" strike out "$6,400" and insert "$30,400:" so as to read: For nineteen clerks of class three, $30,400. One hundred and thirteenth and one hundred and fourteenth amendments:

Strike out "seven" and insert" forty-two:" strike out "$9,800" and insert" $58,800;" so as to read: For forty-two clerks of class two, $58,800. One hundred and fifteenth amendment: Strike out "three" and insert "four;" strike out $5,400" and insert "$7,200;" so as to read: For four clerks of class four, $7,200.

One hundred and sixteenth amendment: Strike out "two" and insert "one;" strike out "$3,200" and insert "$1,600;" so as to read: For one clerk of class three, $1,600.

One hundred and seventeenth amendment: Insert the word "each;" so as to read: For thirty clerks of class one, at $1,200 each, $36,000. One hundred and eighteenth and one hundred and nineteenth amendments:

Strike out "four" and insert "fourteen;" strike out $5,600" and insert "$19,600."

One hundred and twentieth and one hundred and twenty-first amendments:

Strike out" eight" and insert" twenty-four;" strike out $9,600" and insert "$28,800;" so as to read: For twenty-four clerks of class one, $28,800.

One hundred and twenty-second to one hundred and twenty-ninth amendments, inclusive: Strike out "one" and insert "two;" strike out "$1,800" and insert "$3,600;" strike out one" and insert" two:" strike out "$1,600" and insert "$3,200;" strike out two" and insert "four;" strike out **$2.800" and insert $5,600;" strike out "four" and insert twenty-five;" strike out $4,800" and insert $30,000;" so that the paragraph will read as follows:

Office of the Surgeon General:

For two clerks of class four, $3,600; for two clerks

Office of Chief of Ordnance:

For four clerks of class four, $7,200; for one clerk of class three, $1,600; for eight clerks of class two, $11,200; for twenty clerks of class one, $24,000; one messenger, $1,000.

The foregoing amendments, from one hundred and one to one hundred and forty-three, inclusive, were non-concurred in, in accordance with the recommendation of the Committee on Appropriations.

One hundred and forty-fourth amendment: Insert after the words "building occupied by Paymaster General" the words corner of F and Fifteenth streets.'

The Committee on Appropriations recommend concurrence.

The amendment was concurred in.

One hundred and forty-fifth amendment: Strike out "$12,000" and insert "$15,000;" so as to read:

For superintendent, watchmen, rent, fuel, lights, and miscellaneous items, $15,000.

The Committee on Appropriations recommend non-concurrence.

The amendment was non-concurred in. One hundred and forty-sixth amendment: Insert Solicitor and Naval Judge Advocate General, $3,500.

The Committee on Appropriations recommend concurrence.

Mr. WASHBURNE, of Illinois. I hope the committee will not concur in that amendment. It is a departure from the rule which the committee has acted on in every other case, and I desire for a moment or two to call attention to the facts. On the 2d of March, 1865, we passed an act authorizing the President to appoint, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, for service during the rebellion and one year afterward, an officer in the Navy Department to be called the Solicitor and Naval Judge Advocate General, at an annual salary of $3,500. This was passed before the close of the rebellion, on the 2d of March, 1865, for the purpose of continuing the office for one year. It expired one year after the close of the rebellion. At the last Congress we continued this office by making an appropriation of $3,500 for the salary of the solicitor. When the Committee on Appropriations came to consider the matter this session they found that there was no such office; that it had expired by its own limitation, and they very properly refused to make an appropriation.

The bill went to the Senate, and the Senate put in this amendment to pay a man whose office has expired for another fiscal year, the year ending June 30, 1869. Now, sir, I hope the committee will not depart from the rule which it has adhered to in all these cases. Where we found that clerks had been appointed to continue one year after the rebellion, we refused to make appropriations for the reason that there were no such officers to be paid; and I object to continuing an office for which there is no law, and for which I contend there is no necessity. I recollect very well when this office was established, and I have the debate here. It was put upon the ground that it was only required during the rebellion, and nobody asked for it for any longer period of time than one year after the rebellion.

Now, sir, it is said that there is very great necessity for this office. I never knew an instance in which a man wanted an office, when gentlemen could not devise reasons enough why the office should be established and could not show that there was very great necessity for it. I believe the gentleman who holds this position, Mr. Bolles, is an extreme Radical and agrees with me in politics. He is an able lawyer and an honest man, and if we are to have an officer of this kind, I should be very glad to vote to have him receive the appointment. But believing such an office not to be necessary, knowing that it was created for a specific purpose, and that it was stated in the debate that its continuance would not be asked for more than a year after the rebellion, I do hope the House will refuse to concur in the amendment of the Senate, and that we will not at this time commence inaugurating new and useless offices.

Mr. FARNSWORTH. I would ask my colleague whether he thinks it possible to get rid of an office after it has once been ingrafted on the Treasury?

Mr. WASHBURNE, of Illinois. That will depend on the committee. I hope we shall

refuse to concur in the amendment of the Senate and exclude it from this bill.

Mr. BUTLER, of Massachusetts. It becomes my duty once again to represent the Committee on Appropriations in the Committee of the Whole upon this bill. The Committee on Appropriations, with singular unanimity, voted to concur in this amendment. The Committee on Naval Affairs, both of this House and of the Senate, have unanimously concurred in a resolution to continue this office because of its necessity, and it is only because they have not had an opportunity to report, that that resolution has not been before you.

I hold in my hand a letter from the Secretary of the Navy, who says:

The law which created the office, authorized it 'during the rebellion and one year thereafter,' but the services of a solicitor, or proper law officer for this Department, and I may say for the other Departments, also, are so obvious that I trust it may not be dispensed with. Important questions, some of them requiring laborious legal investigation, are constantly arising, and if there be not a solicitor to give them attention, special counsel must be employed, whose fees in the aggregate would exceed the salary of the solicitor."

I hold in my hand a letter from the Secretary of War who says:

"I concur with the Secretary of the Navy in the opinion that the discontinuance of the office of Solicitor and Naval Judge Advocate General, would be prejudicial to the interests of the public and of the naval service."

I hold in my hand a letter from General Grant, addressed to my colleague on the committee, [Mr. WASHBURNE of Illinois,] in which he says:

"General Bolles is brother-in-law of General Dix, ourable minister to France. He is a gentleman whom I can vouch for.

"As to the matter of business he wishes to speak about I can say, that in my opinion, the office which he holds in the Navy is of the same importance as the office of Judge Advocate General in the Army."

Mr. ROSS. Is this for past services, or for services hereafter to be performed?

Mr. BUTLER, of Massachusetts. For services to be performed from the 1st day of July (yesterday) until the 30th of June, 1869. The proposition is simply to give him $3,500 a year to carry on this office during the coming fiscal year. My friend from Illinois [Mr. FARNSWORTH] asks if we can ever get rid of any of these officers. The Committee on Ap propriations have cut off some hundred of them in this very bill, and they are still at the work. We propose where we find a good and necessary officer to keep him, and where we find one that is not necessary to get rid of him.

Mr. FARNSWORTH. Does the gentleman from Massachusetts, [Mr. BUTLER,] with the gentleman from Illinois, [Mr. WASHBURNE,] admit that this office is no longer legally in existence?

Mr. BUTLER, of Massachusetts. By no

means.

[Here the hammer fell.]

Mr. WASHBURNE, of Illinois. I move to amend the amendment by striking out the last word. I yield assent to a great deal the gentleman from Massachusetts [Mr. BUTLER] has said in regard to this solicitor of the Navy; but I cannot assent to the suggestion that he has said anything which should induce this Committee of the Whole to keep this item of appropriation in here. I object to this way of perpetuating officers without law. If the gentleman is in favor of this principle, why did he strike out these thousands of clerks with their little salaries of twelve, fifteen, or eighteen hundred dollars a year?

Mr. BUTLER, of Massachusetts. They were not wanted.

Mr. WASHBURNE, of Illinois. Neither is this man wanted. We never had such an officer in the Navy Department before 1865, and I undertake to say that this office was created at that time merely to give this man a place. We had a solicitor in the War Department, and we discarded him as being utterly unnecessary, and there is no solicitor whatever in the War Department to day. Now, I object to this thing, after the proposition is got through the House, upon the ground that this was got through the House in 1865; I object to coming in at this time and continuing this officer a year longer in this way. If we are to have a solicitor of the Navy Department, then let the Committee on Naval Affairs, who my colleague on the Committee of Appropriations [Mr. BUTLER, of Massachusetts] says recommends this matter, bring in a bill to create the office and to define the duties of the office and fix the salary; and not let them call upon us every time Congress meets here to make an appropriation for the compensation of this man. Mr. Rice, of Massachusetts, who was then chairman of the Committee on Naval Affairs of this House, and who engineered the proposition through the House at that time, made some remarks which I ask my colleague on the Committee of Appropriations [Mr. BUTLER, of Massachusetts] to listen to as I read them. Mr. Rice then said:

"It will require a year to finish the business which will have accrued in the Department. We desire that he shall continue no longer than his services are necessary."

In the same debate the gentleman from Ohio

Was not

Mr. WASHBURNE, of Illinois. that a bid to catch votes for him? Mr. BUTLER, of Massachusetts. It is a little antidote to a great deal of poison attempted to be put in this case. There are

over a thousand cases of court-martial in the Navy; and this gentleman is the only man in the Navy Department with legal attainments to supply the same want that creates a necessity for the Judge Advocate General of the Army.

"When this subject first came before the Committee on Naval Affairs I was opposed to it in toto. On consultation with the Secretary of the Navy I found that he were compelled to pay out four times the amount to attorneys; and I was willing to agree to it if the office was made temporary. It is only to continue during the rebellion and one year afterward, and to pay the officer $3,500, instead of attorneys four times that amount.'

Mr. SPALDING. I ascertain now that it will cost four times as much as the salary of this officer to employ attorneys.

Mr. WASHBURNE, of Illinois. Now, Mr. Chairman, I do not know what authority my friend from Ohio [Mr. SPALDING] has for making that statement. I do not know what duty this solicitor of the Navy Department has to discharge. I do not know that he has any

duty that cannot be discharged as it was discharged prior to March 2, 1865, by an intelligent and competent clerk of the Navy Department. I withdraw my amendment.

Mr. TWICHELL. Irenew the amendment. Mr. Chairman, it is well known that the Committee on Appropriations have struck out every amendment they could possibly strike out in this bill. This amendment they could not agree to strike out; and I am very glad that they did not. The Senate has adopted this amendment, the Committee on Appropriations have recommended concurrence, and I trust that the House will concur. The Senate has inserted an appropriation of $3,500 for the salary of this officer; and by the adoption of this amendment we shall undoubtedly save to the Government ten times the amount; I know the important duties which this officer performs. The Secretary of the Navy, as well as the Secretary of War, and the General of the Army, testify to the value and importance of his services; and if the gentleman from Illinois has no confidence in any of these officers it is time that he had confidence in somebody.

Mr. WASHBURNE, of Illinois. I desire to say that I have a great deal of confidence in all these men; but neither the opinions of the General of the Army nor the opinions of any other man can influence me to vote against my judgment in this House.

Mr. TWICHELL. I withdraw the amendment to the amendment.

Mr. FARNSWORTH. I move to amend by striking out the last word. Mr. Chairman, I am opposed to this amendment of the Senate; and I would oppose it, if for no other reason, because it is an attempt to revive by legislation in an appropriation bill an office which is no longer in existence. If the Committee on Appropriations of this House had reported this bill with such a provision in it, it would have been, on a point of order, struck out as independent legislation providing for an office not in existence.

Mr. TWICHELL. Let me say to the gentleman that the Secretary of the Navy, in making his estimates, has estimated for the salary of this very officer.

Mr. FARNSWORTH. The Secretary of the Navy does not create offices by the estimates which he makes. The Secretary of the Navy and the Secretary of the Treasury estimate for all conceivable allowances and officers that they have ever had.

Mr. STEVENS, of Pennsylvania. The gentleman will permit me to say that the rules provide that anything is in order which is necessary to carry on any Department of the Government.

Mr. FARNSWORTH. Mr. Chairman, there is no kind of doubt that any provision contemplating the creation of a new office would be ruled out of order as independent legislation. Therefore the House could not have put it in. The Senate, having different rules, has legislated a new office into this bill, an office which has expired by limitation of time. We are constantly being asked by the Senate to concur in this kind of independent legislation. As my colleague [Mr. WASHBURNE, of Illinois] has well said, if this officer is necessary why not let the Committee on Naval Affairs report a bill providing for the continuance of the office?

Mr. TWICHELL. The gentleman will permit me to say that this subject has been before the Committee on Naval Affairs, and they unanimously recommend making this office permanent.

Mr. FARNSWORTH. Why, then, do they not report a bill to that effect? No such office as this is now in existence. We propose now to provide for the pay of this officer, thereby reviving the office and continuing it for another

Mr. FARNSWORTH. Certainly; there is a law continuing that school. There is a law establishing a naval school, but the law limits this to one year after the rebellion. I ask the gentleman whether the rebellion has not expired?

Mr. TWICHELL. Not yet, so far as the importance of retaining this officer is concerned.

Mr. FARNSWORTH. If that is so, if gentlemen are really of the opinion that the rebellion is not yet over, I cannot hope to convince them. For myself I will not vote to concur in the amendment of the Senate creating this office. I withdraw my amendment to the amendment.

The committee divided; and there wereayes 30, noes 49; no quorum voting.

The CHAIRMAN ordered tellers; and ap pointed Mr. WASHBURNE of Illinois, and Mr. TWICHELL.

The committee again divided; and the tellers reported-ayes 36, noes 52; no quorum voting.

The Clerk proceeded to call the roll, and the following members failed to answer to their

names:

Messrs. Adams, Allison, Archer, James M. Ashley, Baldwin, Barnes, Barnum, Beaman, Bingham, Boyer, Bromwell, Brooks, Broomall, Buckland, Burr, Roderick R. Butler, Cake, Cary, Chanler, Reader W. Clarke, Covode, Dawes, Delano, Dodge, Eggleston, Eldridge, Ferriss, Fields, Finney, Fox, Glossbrenner, Golladay, Gravely, Haight, Hamilton, Harding, Hill, Holman, Hotchkiss, Asahel W. Hubbard, Richard D. Hubbard, Humphrey, Johnson, Jones, Julian, Kelley, Kerr, Knott, Laflin, Lincoln, McCullough, McKee, Morrell, Morrissey, Mungen, Newcomb, Niblack, Nicholson, Nunn, Peters, Phelps, Pile, Polsley, Pruyn, Robinson, Roots, Schenck, Scofield, Selye, Stokes, Taffe, Thomas, John Trimble, Lawrence S. Trimble, Upson, Van Aernam, Robert T. Van Horn, Van Trump, Van Wyck, Ward, Cadwalader C. Washburn, Thomas Williams, John T. Wilson, Stephen F. Wilson, Wood, Woodbridge, and Woodward.

The committee rose; and the Speaker having resumed the chair, Mr. WILSON, of Iowa, reported that the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, having under consideration the amendments of the Senate to the legislative appropriation, and finding itself without a quorum, had caused the roll to be called and directed him to report the names of the absentees to the House.

ENROLLED BILLS AND RESOLUTIONS SIGNED. Mr. HOPKINS, from the Committee on Enrolled Bills, reported that they had examined and found truly enrolled bills and joint resolutions of the following titles; when the Speaker signed the same:

An act (H. R. No. 1129) for the relief of the widow and children of Colonel James A. Mulligan, deceased;

An act (H. R. No. 411) for the relief of Almira Wyeth;

An act (H. R. No. 775) granting a pension to the widow and minor children of Erastus Kinsel;

An act (H. R. No. 671) granting a pension to the widow of Henry Kaneday;

An act (H. R. No. 523) granting a pension to James S. Todd; and

Joint resolution (H. R. No. 312) relative to the pay of the Assistant Librarian of the House. LEGISLATIVE APPROPRIATION BILL-AGAIN.

The SPEAKER. There are one hundred and eight members present, and the committee will resume its session.

The committee resumed its session.

Mr. WASHBURNE, of Illinois. I will say to the gentleman from Massachusetts [Mr. TWICHELL] that there will be a vote in the House on this amendment.

Mr. TWICHELL. Very well.

The amendment was non-concurred in, only twenty-five members voting in favor thereof. One hundred and forty-seventh amendment: Strike out under the head of Navy Department" "six" and insert "four" so it will read, "four clerks of the fourth class, $7,200,"

The Committee on Appropriations recommend concurrence.

The amendment was coneurred in.

One hundred and forty-eighth amendment: Insert under the same bead "four clerks of the first class, $4,800.

The Committee on Appropriations recommend non-concurrence.

The amendment was non-concurred in.

One hundred and forty-ninth to one hundred and eighty-seventh amendment, inclusive. By unanimous consent the above amendments, in which the Committee on Appropriations recommended non-concurrence, were considered in gross and non-concurred in.

One hundred and eighty-eighth amendment: Strike out "fifth" and insert "first;" so as to read, "First Auditor of the Treasury Department." The Committee on Appropriations recommend concurrence.

The amendment was concurred in.

One hundred and eighty-ninth amendment: Insert:

And revised and certified by the First Comptroller according to law.

The Committee on Appropriations recommend concurrence.

The amendment was concurred in.

One hundred and ninetieth amendment: Strike out three " and insert "five;" so as to read, "for purchase for library, laboratory, and museum, $5,000.

The Committee on Appropriations recommend concurrence.

The amendment was concurred in.

One hundred and ninety-first amendment: Strike out "five," so as to read," for purchase of new and valuable seeds and labor in putting them up, $20,000."

The Committee on Appropriations recommend concurrence.

The amendment was concurred in.

One hundred and ninety-second amendment: Strike out" five" and insert "twelve;" so as to read, for grading, forming roads and walks, and improving the grounds, $12,000.

The Committee on Appropriations recommend non-concurrence.

Mr. TROWBRIDGE. The reason for the reduction of the amount appropriated for seeds by the Senate from $20,000 to $5,000 is that they proposed to transfer that appropriation and add a little more to the present appropriation upon which the vote is now to be taken, namely, "For grading, forming roads and walks, and improving the grounds, $12,000." The Senate struck out the greater part of the other appropriation for seeds with the expectation of transferring it to this. I therefore hope the amendment of the Senate to increase this appropriation will be concurred in. It only increases the appropriation a very little. It was with that view that I assented to the reduction in the other case. Otherwise I would have opposed it.

Mr. WASHBURNE, of Illinois. I think the gentleman had better leave this to the committee of conference to adjust.

Mr. TROWBRIDGE. I would prefer to concur in the amendment.

The amendment was concurred in.

One hundred and ninety-third amendment: Insert the following:

Department of Education:

For compensation of Commissioner of Education, $4,000; chief clerk, $2,000; one clerk of class four $1,800, and one clerk of class three, $1,600. Forstationery, blank books, freight, express charges library, miscellaneous items, and extra clerical help, $10.600, in all $20,000.

The Committee on Appropriations recommend non-concurrence.

Mr. SPALDING. I move concurrence. Mr. RANDALL. This is a perfect waste. Mr. SPALDING. I believe we ought to concur in this. I yield the floor to my colleague.

Mr. GARFIELD. I am exceedingly sorry to hear that the majority of the committee have recommended non-concurrence in this amendment. The Department of Education was established in March, 1867. An exceedingly small amount of money was required to carry it on. I am not as well informed as to what it has accomplished as I would be glad to be and as I presume some other gentlemen

here would also like to be, but I am perfectly certain that no one appropriation of the amount of money provided for in the law creating that Department could be applied more advantageously than for the purpose indicated in that act. If any gentleman will look into it, I believe he will find that no act involving no larger amount of money than was involved in that has met with a more favorable response throughout the country and throughout the civilized world than the act of the last Congress establishing this Department. The Government of Great Britain has undertaken within the last eight months to establish a department of education. The moment suffrage was extended to eight hundred thousand Englishmen that moment every thinking man in the kingdom recognized the necessity of immediately providing for a more comprehensive and thorough system of education throughout Great Britain to make suffrage intelligent. A bill was introduced almost the first day of the present session of Parliament to establish a department of education, making the head of it one of the advisers of the queen, to have a seat in the cabinet as one of the regular ministers of the Crown. That bill has been advocated by some of the very best minds in England, and although it is postponed for the present there can be no doubt of its ultimate adoption.

I hope it will not be considered improper if I ask to have the following letter from John Bright read. It was addressed to the United States consul at Sheffield, and was recently sent to me.

The Clerk read as follows:

ROCHDALE, January 4, 1868. DEAR SIR: I write to thank you for sending me a copy of General GARFIELD's speech on education. I have read it with much interest.

The Department now to be constituted at Washington will doubtless prepare statistics which will inform the world of what is doing in the United States on the education question: and the volume it will publish will have a great effect in this country, and, indeed, in all civilized countries.

You will have observed the increased interest in education shown in England since the extension of the suffrage. I hope some great and good measure may be passed at an early period.

I am, very truly, yours,

JOHN BRIGHT. GEORGEJ. ABBOT, esq.. United States Consul, Sheffield. Mr. GARFIELD. I only introduce this letter to show the importance attached to this subject by our friends in Europe. The statistics given in the preliminary report of the Commissioner of Education are an earnest of what the Department may accomplish if continued and vigorously administered.

It will be remembered that General Grant, in his report as Secretary of War ad interim, recommended that that part of the Bureau of Freedmen's Affairs that referred to education should not perish with the bureau, but should be transferred to the Department of Education, and that a clause of the bill for the temporary continuance of the bureau, which is now in the hands of the President for his signature, carries out that recommendation. I ask gentlemen what they are going to do with it-if they are going to abandon all further efforts to aid the freedmen and the States of the South?

[Here the hammer fell.]

Mr. RANDALL. I move to amend the amendment of the Senate by striking out “$20,000” and inserting “$10,000."

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There never was any occasion, whatever, in my humble judginent, for the establishment of this Department of Education; and I am glad to see that the Committee on Appropriations recommend a non-concurrence in the extravagant appropriation of the Senate. There is no analogy between Great Britain and this country in connection with the manner and modes of education. England is a centralized Power, and the question belongs directly to Parlia ment, whereas in this country the system of education is exclusively controlled by the States and paid for within the States by the people, and there is no justification whatever for this extravagant appropriation. We were told when this bureau was established that it would not cost over five or six thousand dollars.

Mr. GARFIELD. The gentleman is mistaken. The original bill itself provided for $13,500.

Mr. RANDALL. Well, $13,500; I accept the correction, and here we have an appropri ation asked for of $20,000.

Mr. WASHBURNE, of Illinois. thousand dollars.

Thirty

Mr. RANDALL. No, $20,000. Now, let us cut off this appropriation before this incubus is fastened on the Government. The education of our children is best left to the States, and I hope the amendment of the Senate will not be concurred in.

Mr. DONNELLY. I oppose the amendment to the amendment. I think I may say that, in the judgment of every gentleman of this House, the interest of education is the most vital and the most precious involved in our institutions, because our institutions rest upon the theory that the people are intelligent enough to judge of the questions submitted to them for their suffrages, and upon that intelligent judgment rests the very life of the nation. This is an acknowledged fact.

Now, Mr. Chairman, we have in the last few years extended to the people of the South lately in a condition of slavery the right of suffrage. We have given that right of suffrage to an immense number of men. We find, if the reports that are published in the papers are to be believed, that a large number of those men just snatched from a condition of slavery are now found voting upon the side of the very men who made rebellion against this Government, and who made that rebellion to keep them in slavery. If the reports in the newspapers are true, in one State thirty thousand men have so voted. Mr. Chairman, if such be the fact, this general suffrage will prove a calamity to the country.

Mr. RANDALL. Let me ask the gentleman if this appropriation will educate a single one of those thirty thousand men to whom he refers, in the State of Mississippi, I presume? Mr. DONNELLY. I will come to that in

a moment.

Mr. FARNSWORTH. It will not educate anybody.

Mr. DONNELLY. I say this state of things will be a calamity, if the ignorance of these men is to furnish a weapon and an instrument to endanger the life of this country. We cannot send suffrage to these people unless we send education to accompany it. And how can we do that? Our system of Government does not permit us to undertake directly the education of the people of the State of Mississippi. But if we have here in this capital of the country an institution which is, as it were, an eye watching the condition of that whole country, in an educational point of view, we shall have reached a great end. We can thus stimulate education there. Nay, more, if educa tion falls short in any of these States, that fact is brought to our notice, and to the notice of the people of the entire country; and the public opinion of the entire country is turned upon the section so defaulting. We ask here for an appropriation of $20,000. Compare that with some other items of appropriation in this bill. We appropriate $40,000-double the amount here asked-for the purpose of publishing the laws of Congress in the States and Territories of the United States. We appropriate $42,000 for the Capitol grounds and for the Botanical Gardens. We appropriated $32,000 for the Congressional Library. It is true, these are all valuable interests, interests that I would not oppose. But how do they compare for a moment with this great, this gigantic interest which will reach over this whole country; and upon which I say the very life of this nation may depend. For where the destinies of this country rest upon the suffrages of an ignorant and unenlightened horde, the safety of this country has ceased, and its institutions are in daily peril.

One more point, and I have done. This Department has been in operation but one year. Why this attempt to massacre it in its very

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cradle? Why not give it an opportunity to manifest what it can do?

[Here the hammer fell.] Mr. RANDALL. I withdraw my amendment to the amendment.

Mr. POMEROY. I renew the amendment to the amendment for the purpose of saying ing what I can to aid the Committee on Appropriations to get rid of this excrescence that has grown up on this appropriation bill. There is not to-day, and there never has been, any more reason for having a Department of Education in the city of Washington, than there is for having here a department of music, or a department of architecture, or a department of religion, or anything else of the kind that might be named.

The gentleman from Minnesota [Mr. DoNNELLY] says that we want an eye here. Well, sir, this is but a glass eye; it has no sight in it; it has no power; it cannot inspect the system of education anywhere in the United States. This Department cannot appoint a superintendent or a teacher anywhere, nor can it recommend a school-book and carry it into any school. It cannot do anything, except to sit here and draw the salaries of its employés and compile such statistics as the State superintendents of schools may see fit to send them without any requirement of law whatever. The reason I want to strike this out now is that it is only a year old. By the time it gets to be three years old it will want at least $100,000 a year; and how much it may want when it comes to be of full age I do not know. Sir, the sooner we turn from this system of legislating upon everything that does not concern us, and devote our attention to those things which we should attend to, the better for the people and the Government. This is a barnacle that has grown on the ship of State, and the quicker we scrape it off the better for the Government and the people.

Mr. PHELPS. It appears to me, Mr. Chairman, that much of the opposition to this Department of Education arises from a misunderstanding of the object and purposes for which it was created; and in my judgment this misunderstanding is largely due to the title which has, I think, unfortunately been given it. I think there ought never to have been an attempt to create what is called a "Department" for the purposes contemplated by the act of Congress which established this institution. If the powers and duties which are devolved by law upon the Commissioner of Education, at the head of the so-called Department of Education, had been devolved upon a clerk in the Interior Department, or if even an officer designated a Commissioner of Education had been provided for, with the same powers and duties contemplated by the law heretofore enacted, without any attempt to create a separate Department of the Government for that purpose, I think a great part of the objection and the clamor to which this institution has been subjected would have been obviated. For my part I am not to be imposed upon by mere names. I have examined carefully and repeatedly the act of Congress which established this Department, and I have not been able to find in it anything which is not in my judgment perfectly consistent with the Constitution, and entirely in accordance with the spirit and purposes of a Government such as

ours.

Mr. RANDALL. I would like to ask the gentleman where this Department is located?

Mr. PHELPS. Where all the other Departments are located-at the seat of Government, where it ought to be located.

Mr. RANDALL. In which one of the pub. lic buildings?

Mr. PHELPS. If the gentleman had taken the trouble to find out, he would not ask me such a question.

Mr. RANDALLS I have not been able to find out.

Mr. PHELPS. I presume the gentleman has not taken the trouble to inquire.

Mr. RANDALL. Yes, sir, I have; and

because I have not been able to find out I make the inquiry now.

Mr. PHELPS. I cannot give the gentleman any more of my time. It is easy enough for him to ascertain where this Department is located. With regard to the fruits accruing from this institution, it certainly could not be expected that in the short period of time which has elapsed since the inauguration of this Department it could have sprung to full fruition. Time must be consumed in breaking the ground and sowing the seed before the harvest can be reaped.

are now so niggardly we propose to strike out that appropriation of $20,000, and say there shall no longer be this bureau of education to foster a great interest of the country. I deprecate the policy which would strike down this appropriation as I would deprecate the policy which ties our hands against administering to the charities of the District of Columbia.

Mr. STEVENS, of Pennsylvania. I was somewhat taken by surprise this morning to find the friends of the different schemes have agreed on a scheme with which to carry out this Department of Education. It passed the Some unfavorable intimations have been very night Congress adjourned last year. It made as to the qualifications of the gentleman had been defeated by my casting vote; but my who has been assigned to the control of this learned friend from Minnesota [Mr. DONNELLY] Department. When this subject was hereto- came and asked me to withdraw it. I did so. fore under consideration in the House, I took I did not think it was to be taken up and passed occasion to call attention to the character of immediately. It was passed, and a man about this gentleman, and to the high and unques- whom I could speak that which would place tionable testimony with regard to his qualifica-him in a different position from that which he tions. I had read here an extract from Kent's Commentaries, in which Chancellor Kent himself, a quarter of a century ago, spoke in terins of the highest commendation with respect to the educational labors of the gentleman who has been assigned by the President to the control of this Department. From the time when he was thus favorably noticed by Chancellor Kent in the fourth edition of his Commentaries to the present moment, this gentleman has been undeviatingly devoting himself to the cause of education, both in this country and abroad.

[Here the hammer fell.]

Mr. POMEROY. I withdraw the amendment to the amendment.

now occupies, was appointed instantly to this place. When we came here not a dollar had been appropriated to pay him. They asked for a deficiency to pay him; this House refused to pay a dollar for the purpose. They refused to consent to an appropriation for the next fiscal year. I like to hear education eulogized. I have sometimes taken pride in advocating it; but whoever thought of educating the people at the top rung? Whoever, sir, thought of educating the negroes to vote by teaching them Greek and Latin. My friends here are preparing them for freedom by giving them, not a common-school education, but by giving them a high scientific polish. Gentlemen, study your "Hildreth" and your arithmetic a little more, and say how long it took you to get educated. The services of the bureau of education will be lost so far as the negroes are concerned.

What is the bureau of education? It is the gathering up of these facts by a worn-out man, who embodies them in his report. We are told the speech of the gentleman from Ohio [Mr. GARFIELD] on this subject was much applauded. I have no doubt it was. It was a great speech, but wherein would that help the mass of the peo

We have before the House two bills for common-school purposes. I thought we had agreed to that. One of them repeals this educational

Mr. SPALDING. I move to amend the amendment by striking out the last word. Mr. Chairman, I believe this matter of encouraging education is not a new thing with Congress. If I am correctly informed, it has been the habit of Congress from the earliest days of our Government to make liberal contributions for promoting education in the States and Territories. I know that in my own noble State we are greatly indebted to the munificence of Congress for our system of common-school education. In every township one section of land was appropriated by Congress for school pur-ple in teaching them how to govern the nation? poses; and the sale of those sections has given to us the greater portion of our common-school fund. I understand that at this moment the young State of Minnesota has a more prosperbureau and substitutes common schools in this ous common-school fund than any other State District in its place. These common schools in the Union, not excepting old Connecticut; would be of some use. We now pay for a and this has arisen from the liberal donations portion of the education of the people of this of public lands by Congress. All the new District. We pay a part and the people of the States have received donations of lands from District pay the balance. I ask seriously, do Congress for the promotion of common-school you advocate this measure merely for the pureducation. But where will you go to ascertain pose of making a glorious speech on the subwhat has become of these donations, what they|ject of education, or do you make it for the have amounted to, what their situation is in each of the States? I ask this question for the purpose of telling you that this is one of the purposes for which this bureau of education was created here in Washington, that the gentleman at the head of it might form a report of the statistics of education in the different States of the Union, and lay that report from time to time before Congress, so that the people of the States might be benefited by it.

I understand the gentleman now at the head of the bureau, who is one of the best instructors in America, confessedly one who has greater experience and capability than any other man who can be named in connection with this subject-I understand he has been diligently employed in gathering this information from the States and Territories and is preparing to lay it before the people of the United States, so they may have the benefit of it. This is one great object in creating the bureau of education. I want to inquire what is Congress coming to? Gentleman say we must wash our hands of the charities in the District of Columbia, not a dollar to go for benevolent purposes. And now when the Senate has appropriated a small pittance of $20,000, under a law enacted twelve months ago, and a law which has found favor throughout the civilized world, where we are commended for it, we

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purpose of fitting freeman for the ballot-box? I think no one can doubt what the answer to that should be. I should be ashamed to vote against educating the people. I would track them from the lowest man or boy who could be taught to read and write upward until the sciences would become germane to their condition. But I would be ashamed to begin at the top and establish a school like Oxford or Cambridge, or like the bureau of education, as one of the samples of the efforts of this nation on the subject of education.

[Here the hammer fell.]

Mr. SPALDING. I withdraw the amendment to the amendment.

Mr. MAYNARD. I move to amend by adding one dollar. I do not know, if I were disposed, that I could say anything about the gentleman at the head of this Department that is not known to the members of the House or to the country. It is proper, however, to say that what I do know of him is to his credit, and that I know nothing to his discredit. rose, however, not for the purpose of general discussion, but for the purpose of suggesting a thought in connection with the condition of education in that part of the country that we are now engaged in politically reconstructing. One of the measures going hand in hand with political construction is educational reconstruction. In

my own State-as some of my colleagues know, for they were parties concerned-the inauguration of an improved school system was one of the first things that met them when the Government was reorganized after the close of the war. They are aware how much they lacked of information respecting the state, not of the higher schools, as the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. STEVENS] says, but of the lower, the primary, the rudimentary schools; how much they needed of the sort of information, to collect and disseminate which I understand to be one of the principal objects of this Department of Education. It seems to me, in view of the condition of affairs in that whole region of country where the establishment of a system of common education to reach all classes of society is a very important part of the processes that are now going on, we need especially, if we ever did, some central agency by which the experience and the results of systems in other parts of the country, where common education has been more highly organized, might be collected. We need it especially and peculiarly, and in that point of view, leaving out every other aspect of the question, it seems to me that this very inconsiderable appropriation of $20,000 might be permitted to stand.

Mr. WASHBURNE, of Illinois, moved that the committee rise.

The motion was agreed to.

The committee accordingly rose; and the Speaker having resumed the chair, Mr. WILSON, of Iowa, reported that the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union had, according to order, had the special order under consideration, being the amendments of the Senate to the bill (H. R. No. 605) making appropriations for the legislative, executive, and judicial expenses of the Government for the year ending the 30th of June, 1869, and come to no resolution thereon.

Mr. WASHBURNE, of Illinois. I move that when the House shall again resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union upon the special order, all debate upon the pending paragraph and the amendments thereto terminate in fifteen minutes. The motion was agreed to.

Mr. WASHBURNE, of Illinois. I move that the rules be suspended, and that the House again resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union upon the amendments of the Senate to the bill (H. R. No. 605) making appropriations for the legis lative, executive, and judicial expenses of the Government for the year ending the 30th of June, 1869.

The motion was agreed to.

So the rules were suspended; and the House accordingly resolved itself into the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, (Mr. WILSON, of Iowa, in the chair,) and resumed the consideration of the amendments of the Senate to the bill (H. R. No. 605) making appropriations for the legislative, executive, and judicial expenses of the Government for the year ending the 30th of June, 1869.

Mr. FARNSWORTH. Mr. Chairman, I have failed yet to hear any gentleman tell the committee what it is proposed to accomplish by having this Bureau of Education. The gentleman from Minnesota [Mr. DONNELLY] talked about the danger to our institutions without it. How the safety of the country is to depend upon it he did not tell us. He spoke of the Commissioner of Agriculture and of the importance of that Department of the Government. He spoke of the importance of educating the freedmen so that they might vote intelligently. But how he proposes that the Commissioner of Education, located in some office in Washing ton-over a restaurant on the avenue, as I believe he holds his office now-is going to educate the freedmen in Mississippi and South Carolina to vote he failed to tell us.

Mr. DONNELLY. I simply desire to say that the gentleman from Tennessee [Mr. MAYNARD] has fully answered that question in stating that this institution was necessary to collect information called for by those freedmen.